Author Topic: Conspiracy Culture  (Read 2376 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #150 on: February 16, 2021, 03:23:57 pm »
She doesn't make the comparison at all, quite the opposite.
 

She says what the US is running are concentration camps and I don't disagree. What she doesn't do is compare them to Nazi camps.

First, that line about Dachau or whatever is not hers. Second she makes the specific comparison elsewhere, like here.

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While she said that these internment systems are far from the extermination camps of Nazi Germany, she felt it was important to point them out as part of a dangerous continuum.

"Even Auschwitz rose out of exactly these other kinds of camps that we're discussing," she said.

"Let us not imagine what other unimaginable horrors we can't yet picture that could develop out of these situations that are happening in broad daylight right now."

Frankly once you've conceded the point that they are concentration camps, you don't have much of a leg to stand on in saying that comparisons to the Nazi camps are off limits. Indeed, to accept the term is to invite such comparisons.


Offline wilber

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #151 on: February 16, 2021, 03:36:11 pm »
First, that line about Dachau or whatever is not hers. Second she makes the specific comparison elsewhere, like here.

Frankly once you've conceded the point that they are concentration camps, you don't have much of a leg to stand on in saying that comparisons to the Nazi camps are off limits. Indeed, to accept the term is to invite such comparisons.

I never "conceded" anything. I already compared them to other concentration camps such as the Boer War and Japanese internment camps as does she. Her only reference to Nazi death camps is as an example where these camps can lead. She does not compare them to Nazi death camps.You can imagine all you want but that doesn't make them the same.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #152 on: February 16, 2021, 05:24:20 pm »
Gina Carano didn't compare Jews being murdered by Nazis to how conservatives are treated.  She said that in Germany they got ordinary people to hate Jews, and asked how is that different than hating someone for their political beliefs?

Personally I don't think you should hate anyone, but I think there's a difference between disliking someone for their race and disliking someone for their politics.  It wasn't a good comparison.  Should she have been fired for it?  I don't think so.  But she wasn't fired just for that, she had made many other posts that Disney didn't like.

Disney can hire and fire anyone they want, and fans can reward or punish Disney for those decisions any way they want.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #153 on: February 16, 2021, 07:31:59 pm »
I never "conceded" anything. I already compared them to other concentration camps such as the Boer War and Japanese internment camps as does she.

Except the Japanese internment and Boer War examples are also imperfect analogs. It's almost as if there are unique circumstances in each case that make them distinct, but that doesn't mean one can't or should not look for similarities.

Quote
Her only reference to Nazi death camps is as an example where these camps can lead. She does not compare them to Nazi death camps.You can imagine all you want but that doesn't make them the same.

No one has ever said they're the same as death camps and I have no idea where this strawman of yours comes from.

The comparison has always been about the philosophical/idealogical underpinnings of the camp systems, and where they can lead. That's it.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 07:41:01 pm by Black Dog »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #154 on: February 17, 2021, 10:23:31 am »
Yup.  Still not the same as Nazi death camps.
You know "concentration camps" are not "Nazi death camps" and were not exclusive to the Nazis anyhow.  Stop pretending like you don't know that you're conflating terms.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #155 on: February 17, 2021, 10:25:58 am »
She didn't compare conservatives to Jews in concentration camps! She just compared them to Jews during kristallnacht!

Jesus Christ guys....
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Offline Mr. Perfect

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #156 on: February 17, 2021, 11:30:36 am »
You know "concentration camps" are not "Nazi death camps" and were not exclusive to the Nazis anyhow.  Stop pretending like you don't know that you're conflating terms.

Comparing them to Nazi concentration camps is hyperbole.  I’m not conflating anything.  Now you’re pretending as if we were only talking about generic “concentration camps” as if the comparison wasn’t linked to Nazis and Jews.  We weren’t.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #157 on: February 17, 2021, 01:54:08 pm »
Comparing them to Nazi concentration camps is hyperbole. I’m not conflating anything.  Now you’re pretending as if we were only talking about generic “concentration camps” as if the comparison wasn’t linked to Nazis and Jews.  We weren’t.

OK, I'll bite: why not?

Offline kimmy

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #158 on: February 18, 2021, 10:05:45 pm »
Most people don't know a goddamn thing about Hitler or the Holocaust outside of what they see in movies so I'm not sure their opinions matter.

Gimme a break. The only reason you (and others) make these inapt Nazi comparisons is that you feel like Nazi comparisons will get "most people" more riled up than more reasonable (but less emotive) comparisons.  You only want to bring Nazis into it because you do care what those people think and you just don't feel a comparison to the Japanese internment is inflammatory enough to get them fired up.

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #159 on: February 20, 2021, 11:26:34 pm »
Gimme a break. The only reason you (and others) make these inapt Nazi comparisons is that you feel like Nazi comparisons will get "most people" more riled up than more reasonable (but less emotive) comparisons.  You only want to bring Nazis into it because you do care what those people think and you just don't feel a comparison to the Japanese internment is inflammatory enough to get them fired up.

 -k

I don't assume that everyone has an in-depth knowledge of history. I just recognize that this is something has vert real parrallels with how the Holocaust started. And we know that's not a hypothetical, we know it's a fact. If the reason people keep mentioning the Nazi camps is that it forces people like you to acknowledge the reality of this. You guys always used to always respond to this type of thing with "never again!" and now you don't do that anymore. Instead of "never again!" it's now "you can't say that!"

Anyway, it would be nice if one person would actually read the references and explanations I've provided and then explain why the comparison between the border camps and the Nazi concentration camps is so off base.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 02:26:30 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #160 on: February 22, 2021, 01:02:55 am »
Anyway, it would be nice if one person would actually read the references and explanations I've provided and then explain why the comparison between the border camps and the Nazi concentration camps is so off base.

There's problems with the comparisons.  The Trump admin wanted to enforce border law by charging illegal border crossers with crimes.  In order to do that, they were legally required to separate children from parents because the courts decided during the Obama admin era that it's inhumane and therefore illegal to jail children with their parents when the children themselves broke no laws, so the kids should be allowed to be transferred to stay with other family that's already in the US or whatnot.  Which is why there's photos from Obama era of kids in cages too.

The Trump admin's fault is that they were too dumb to anticipate this being a political minefield, and also that the kids weren't exactly kept in the nicest conditions.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #161 on: February 22, 2021, 11:51:15 am »
There's problems with the comparisons.  The Trump admin wanted to enforce border law by charging illegal border crossers with crimes.  In order to do that, they were legally required to separate children from parents because the courts decided during the Obama admin era that it's inhumane and therefore illegal to jail children with their parents when the children themselves broke no laws, so the kids should be allowed to be transferred to stay with other family that's already in the US or whatnot.  Which is why there's photos from Obama era of kids in cages too.

The Trump admin's fault is that they were too dumb to anticipate this being a political minefield, and also that the kids weren't exactly kept in the nicest conditions.


I've already made the basis for the comparisons clear, and it's not about the legal wrangling involved. And if you parse the details of other acceptable comparisons like the Japanese internments, you'll find huge differences as well, so I'm not sure what that proves.


Offline kimmy

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #162 on: March 03, 2021, 09:19:17 pm »
I don't assume that everyone has an in-depth knowledge of history. I just recognize that this is something has vert real parrallels with how the Holocaust started. And we know that's not a hypothetical, we know it's a fact. If the reason people keep mentioning the Nazi camps is that it forces people like you to acknowledge the reality of this. You guys always used to always respond to this type of thing with "never again!" and now you don't do that anymore. Instead of "never again!" it's now "you can't say that!"

Anyway, it would be nice if one person would actually read the references and explanations I've provided and then explain why the comparison between the border camps and the Nazi concentration camps is so off base.

You cite an article that points out that "things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz." But the whole reason people like you keep bringing Nazis into this is to try to evoke imagery from Dachau or Auschwitz.  It's shameless and makes reasonable people tune you out because you're being ridiculous.

And it's completely unnecessary.  You don't need to piggyback on the Holocaust to make the point. The facts speak for themselves. Children in cages, children torn away from their parents, children who might never be reunited with their families, children who died while in custody... none of this needs to be embellished. The facts speak for themselves. Instead of trying to leverage a ridiculous comparison to the Holocaust, present the facts of what was happening and you'd find a far more appreciative audience.

Progressives ought to stop shooting themselves in the foot by being ridiculous.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #163 on: March 03, 2021, 10:19:42 pm »
If you're like me, you associated the name Naomi Wolf with feminism and the book "The Beauty Myth".  Back in the 1990s "The Beauty Myth" was a landmark book and Naomi Wolf was probably the single most visible feminist author of the era. 

But Naomi Wolf has fallen on hard times.

In 2012 she published a book called "Vag1na: The New Biography".  Full of shoddy neuroscience, pseudoscience, and mystic woo-woo, reviewers couldn't tell if it was intended to be serious or satire.

In 2014 things took a darker turn as Wolf claimed that ISIS videos depicting the murder of western journalists were hoaxes staged using crisis actors. And in what can now be called foreshadowing, she claimed that the US government was planning to bring Ebola to the United States as a pretext for implementing martial law.

In 2019, Wolf published a new book, called Outrages, about the historical persecution of gay people. It was immediately pulled off the shelves by its publisher, after a disastrous BBC interview in which a historian explained to Wolf that her information was based on a serious misunderstanding of historical record-keeping in Britain. After some corrections, the book was unceremoniously rereleased in 2020, and was once again declared to be full of false information by historians.

In 2021, a look through Wolf's Twitter feed reveals that she is in full tinfoil hat mode. Mixed in with a litany of anti-mask, anti-lockdown post, one finds posts relating to nanotechnology, biotech, and the new mRNA vaccines.  The heart of it is this: Moderna published some information to explain how mRNA vaccines work in layman's terms-- likening it to a new operating system for a computer... and Wolf has interpreted this quite literally: she believes that the vaccines are quite literally going to take control of our bodies. Last week she produced a video to "sound the alarm" over this. It was declared dangerous medical misinformation and removed from Twitter, Facebook, Vimeo, and every other platform she attempted to share it on.

There are a lot of morons on the internet, but what makes Naomi Wolf different from most is that people probably think she's still the respected author from the 1990s, not the unhinged dingbat she has turned into. Her once-respected name might give her wacky ideas more attention than she deserves.



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Offline MH

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #164 on: March 04, 2021, 05:53:53 am »
Speculation was that the Apple people were talking about something called 'time machine' or some product that she misinterpreted.  Oh well.  :P