Author Topic: Conspiracy Culture  (Read 2376 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2021, 12:17:29 pm »
I think putting kids in those camps is pretty terrible but equating them with Nazi concentration camps is neither accurate or constructive.

A better analogy might  be the camps used by the British during the Boer War or even our worst residential schools.

The whole point of the comparison was never about drawing an equivalence between the migrant internment camps and the death camps, but to highlight the similarities between how the demonization and marginalization of Jews led to the Holocaust and Trump/GOP's campaign to demonize and marginalize immigrants. So while the migrant camps might have more in common with the other examples you cite in terms of their conditions and intent, they fit just as well with the Nazi camps when viewed as part of a political project.

Online Mr. Perfect

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #91 on: February 12, 2021, 12:21:53 pm »
The whole point of the comparison was never about drawing an equivalence between the migrant internment camps and the death camps, but to highlight the similarities between how the demonization and marginalization of Jews led to the Holocaust and Trump/GOP's campaign to demonize and marginalize immigrants. So while the migrant camps might have more in common with the other examples you cite in terms of their conditions and intent, they fit just as well with the Nazi camps when viewed as part of a political project.

Thatís what the apologists say about the actressí tweet.  It was never a comparison, it was about drawing the equivalence of demonizing a group to get their neighbours to hate them.

Same problem with both those hyperbolic comparisons.... 

Online Mr. Perfect

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2021, 12:23:49 pm »
It's a clear example of Godwins Law.
We put Japanese Canadians in camps during WW2.

A Democrat government under Roosevelt put Japanese Americans in camps as well.

That would have been a better comparison of the kids in cages, I think, despite the fact that they werenít their own citizens.

Regardless, both are a horrific stain on America as a nation.  (And Canada, for the Japanese internments).

Offline wilber

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2021, 12:31:57 pm »
That would have been a better comparison of the kids in cages, I think, despite the fact that they werenít their own citizens.

Regardless, both are a horrific stain on America as a nation.  (And Canada, for the Japanese internments).

Yet it's Hitler and the Jews seems to be the go to comparison in spite of the fact it is the least accurate. The world is full of drama queens.

I think I mentioned before that I lived in Steveston for a while during the fifties and a lot of my school mates and friends were Japanese. Their parents and grand parents came back and started over after being stripped of their homes and boats and shipped off to the interior in 1942. Looking back, I'm surprised at how little bitterness there seemed to be, or maybe they just kept it to themselves and didn't involve the kids.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 12:33:29 pm by wilber »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #94 on: February 12, 2021, 12:33:52 pm »
Thatís what the apologists say about the actressí tweet. It was never a comparison, it was about drawing the equivalence of demonizing a group to get their neighbours to hate them.

Same problem with both those hyperbolic comparisons....


No because one actually has some validity and the other is just deranged whining.

There's lots of overlap between Nazi policies towards Jews in the '30s and the U.S. government's policies towards undocumented migrants. There's none between MAGA people being shunned or mocked and the state-facilitated campaign of demonization and indoctrination to stir up hatred against Jews.


Offline cybercoma

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #95 on: February 12, 2021, 12:35:23 pm »
I find it patently absurd that we are splitting hairs about descriptors.

Children were systematically ripped away from their parents and people were locked in literal cages without due process of the law nor adequate food and care. These actions were widespread and systematic along the southern border. This absolutely meets the definition of crimes against humanity as set out by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

Yet we want to talk about whether comparing them to Nazi camps is more accurate or if they were just comparable to lesser concentration camps (like the starvation of people in the Gulags during the famine)?

Making this an argument about semantics is disgustingly dehumanizing and ignores the entire problem altogether. And that in a nutshell is why I have a difficult time taking topics on this forum very seriously anymore.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #96 on: February 12, 2021, 12:36:54 pm »
Yet it's Hitler and the Jews seems to be the go to comparison in spite of the fact it is the least accurate. The world is full of drama queens.

But it's the best known, which is why it's powerful. How many people are aware of the Japanese internments or Boer War camps or the Trail of tears compared to the Holocaust?

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #97 on: February 12, 2021, 12:40:18 pm »
I find it patently absurd that we are splitting hairs about descriptors.

Children were systematically ripped away from their parents and people were locked in literal cages without due process of the law nor adequate food and care. These actions were widespread and systematic along the southern border. This absolutely meets the definition of crimes against humanity as set out by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

Yet we want to talk about whether comparing them to Nazi camps is more accurate or if they were just comparable to lesser concentration camps (like the starvation of people in the Gulags during the famine)?

Making this an argument about semantics is disgustingly dehumanizing and ignores the entire problem altogether. And that in a nutshell is why I have a difficult time taking topics on this forum very seriously anymore.

I disagree, I think the semantic argument is an important one to have to counter bad faith arguments like "oh so you think she's dumb for comparing MAGA folks to the Jews in 1930s Germany but you're ok with comparing border camps to concentration camps?"

Indeed, having the opportunity to highlight why the latter comparison is valid is useful to illustrate how evil the U.S.'s immigration policies are.

Offline wilber

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2021, 12:51:33 pm »
But it's the best known, which is why it's powerful. How many people are aware of the Japanese internments or Boer War camps or the Trail of tears compared to the Holocaust?

It may be the best known but it's still bullshit. Using it as a comparison just trivializes what the Holocaust really was.

It's Godwin's Law in action.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2021, 01:44:52 pm »
It may be the best known but it's still bullshit. Using it as a comparison just trivializes what the Holocaust really was.

So when would it be appropriate to invoke the holocaust? I mean, China is shipping Uighurs to camps for "re-education" but I suppose you can't use the H word there because they aren't actually gassing them with Zyklon B.

Placing the holocaust off limits is gatekeeping bullshit.

Quote
It's Godwin's Law in action.

LOL
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 01:48:33 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2021, 01:57:01 pm »
If nothing else, this Carano controversy led me to learn that they overdubbed all her dialogue in Haywire with another actress because Carano was so terrible at the actual acting parts, which makes sense given her performance in the Mandalorian is more wooden than the damn puppet's.
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Online Mr. Perfect

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2021, 02:00:18 pm »
So when would it be appropriate to invoke the holocaust? I mean, China is shipping Uighurs to camps for "re-education" but I suppose you can't use the H word there because they aren't actually gassing them with Zyklon B.

Placing the holocaust off limits is gatekeeping bullshit.

Well, are they similar to Nazi concentration camps?  If not, then no...  maybe donít use that as an analogy because it doesnít suit it.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2021, 02:15:45 pm »
Well, are they similar to Nazi concentration camps?  If not, then no...  maybe donít use that as an analogy because it doesnít suit it.

Hmm, what could a system of taking a vulnerable out-group, demonizing them, warehousing them in camps and subjecting them to inhumane treatment to advance a racist conception of the national good have in common with the Nazi concentration camps? 'tis a mystery.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2021, 02:44:51 pm »
So when would it be appropriate to invoke the holocaust? I mean, China is shipping Uighurs to camps for "re-education" but I suppose you can't use the H word there because they aren't actually gassing them with Zyklon B.

Placing the holocaust off limits is gatekeeping bullshit.

LOL

You can't evoke the Holocaust because there has ever been such a case of killing on an industrial scale as the Polish death camps. Camps like Bergen-Belsen, Dachau and Buchenwald were in Germany and were not extermination camps. The people who died there were not just Jews and they died from malnutrition, disease and forced labour.

Maybe we could equate the Uighur re-education camps with Nazi camps if we really knew what was going on there but we hear a lot of claims about them that can't be verified. Some of the Soviet Gulags might be compared to Nazi camps because we know they had similar fatality rates.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2021, 03:00:13 pm »
You can't evoke the Holocaust because there has ever been such a case of killing on an industrial scale as the Polish death camps. Camps like Bergen-Belsen, Dachau and Buchenwald were in Germany and were not extermination camps. The people who died there were not just Jews and they died from malnutrition, disease and forced labour.

Except the death rate is not the basis of the comparison.

It's worth noting the concentration camps you mention were up and running almost a decade before the Final Solution was formulated.