Author Topic: Conspiracy Culture  (Read 2376 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #165 on: March 04, 2021, 09:57:14 am »
You cite an article that points out that "things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz." But the whole reason people like you keep bringing Nazis into this is to try to evoke imagery from Dachau or Auschwitz.  It's shameless and makes reasonable people tune you out because you're being ridiculous.

And you think the argument that "these are concentration camps, but not those kinds of concentration camps" will be effective and not inevitably lead to Nazi comparisons anyway?

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And it's completely unnecessary.  You don't need to piggyback on the Holocaust to make the point. The facts speak for themselves. Children in cages, children torn away from their parents, children who might never be reunited with their families, children who died while in custody... none of this needs to be embellished. The facts speak for themselves. Instead of trying to leverage a ridiculous comparison to the Holocaust, present the facts of what was happening and you'd find a far more appreciative audience.


I really want to know who is out there who would be receptive to opposing these things if given the facts but who would be alienated by Nazi comparisons. It's also funny that you were far more sanguine about Gina Carano using Nazi comparisons to talk about her hurt feelings than you are about describing concentration camps as, uh, concentration camps.

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Progressives ought to stop shooting themselves in the foot by being ridiculous.

Centrists really should stop prioritizing respectability above all else.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 10:37:39 am by Black Dog »

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #166 on: March 04, 2021, 10:38:47 am »
Centrists really should stop prioritizing respectability above all else.

I used to call myself progressive, and I still have many progressive views, but when progressives started to get crazy about 5 years ago I said "I can't associate myself with some of this ridiculous stuff".  I think it turns reasonable people off.

It really comes down to how far people are willing to push things, which seems a lot these days.  I remember 20 years ago you'd include a female or minority or 2 in a TV show to be more inclusive, and that was good, that's some progress.  Now it's like THE thing people are obsessed with, and everything is identity quotas, and it's not terrible or anything but it's just like "this is kind of annoying because if you don't have X or Y included you're a sexist racist so cancel you". And on the extreme you get something like the batwoman trailer and people want to vomit except for the extremists who cheer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7RPQMBhVcM
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #167 on: March 04, 2021, 11:57:39 am »
I used to call myself progressive, and I still have many progressive views, but when progressives started to get crazy about 5 years ago I said "I can't associate myself with some of this ridiculous stuff".  I think it turns reasonable people off.

OK like what?

Has it occurred to you you're getting fed this stuff through a filter that is designed to position these things as beyond the pale and outrageous?

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It really comes down to how far people are willing to push things, which seems a lot these days.  I remember 20 years ago you'd include a female or minority or 2 in a TV show to be more inclusive, and that was good, that's some progress.  Now it's like THE thing people are obsessed with, and everything is identity quotas, and it's not terrible or anything but it's just like "this is kind of annoying because if you don't have X or Y included you're a sexist racist so cancel you".

Nothing says "I'm a progressive" like complaining that there are too many gays and blacks on TV now.


« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 12:00:33 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #168 on: March 04, 2021, 12:11:55 pm »
Nothing says "I'm a progressive" like complaining that there are too many gays and blacks on TV now.

I never said that.  I'm talking about being beaten over the head with identity quotas and whatnot.  Nobody has a problem with blacks and gays on TV.  People have a problem with everyone now being casted for whatever identity group they belong to to hit a quota.  People love Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption because he's a great actor, not because he's black.

There's still room for pushing modest numbers of diversity hires to give historically oppressed groups more chances to succeed in positions you historically haven't seen them in often.  I think hiring some female directors is cool.  It's about how far we should take it.  It's about people who think there's an evil patriarchy if 50% of directors or politicians aren't women.

I'd like to watch a cool show starring Batwoman, female superheroes are cool and I like those stories, and maybe we should even create more female superheroes because it's mostly men since men dominate the comic industry.  But I don't really want to hear about the character's feminist platitudes every 3 seconds, it turns people off.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #169 on: March 04, 2021, 12:27:46 pm »
I never said that.  I'm talking about being beaten over the head with identity quotas and whatnot.  Nobody has a problem with blacks and gays on TV.  People have a problem with everyone now being casted for whatever identity group they belong to to hit a quota.  People love Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption because he's a great actor, not because he's black.

You clearly do if you think any such representation is just about hitting a quota versus just, you know, representing the society we live in.

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There's still room for pushing modest numbers of diversity hires to give historically oppressed groups more chances to succeed in positions you historically haven't seen them in often.  I think hiring some female directors is cool.  It's about how far we should take it.  It's about people who think there's an evil patriarchy if 50% of directors or politicians aren't women.

You think there should be a small number of token minorities and that's it? You're literally arguing for a quota on minority representation here lol. i'd love to know how you determine the correct number of women, gays or POCs on TV or in movies. "Let's see we have one Sassy Gay Best Friend, one Fiery Latina, one No Nonsense Black Lady, looks like we're all loaded up!"

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I'd like to watch a cool show starring Batwoman, female superheroes are cool and I like those stories, and maybe we should even create more female superheroes because it's mostly men since men dominate the comic industry.  But I don't really want to hear about the character's feminist platitudes every 3 seconds, it turns people off.

No, it turns you off. That's not the same thing.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 02:09:59 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #170 on: March 04, 2021, 02:16:19 pm »
You clearly do if you think any such representation is just about hitting a quota.

You think there should be a small number of token minorities and that's it? You're literally arguing for a quota on minority representation here lol. i'd love to know how you determine the correct number of women, gays or POCs on TV or in movies. "Let's see we have one Sassy Gay Best Friend, one Fiery Latina, one No Nonsense Black Lady, looks like we're all loaded up!"

No, it turns you off. That's not the same thing.

There is no "correct" number of gays, women, or minorities on TV.  That's the whole point.  You can include people if you like, or not, who gives a crap.  Everyone is trying to determine the exact correct number of every division of identity on every TV show and organization.  I don't mind throwing a bone to people once in a while and giving people opportunities, because why not, it's good to give people chances who might not ordinarily have them.  But I'm not going to look at every single hiring decision and break it down like the census in order to make sure the proportion of people from group X or Y in the general population is proportionately represented in the staff of every organization in the country because people falsely assume that to not do so is somehow an indication of racism and sexism and then scream about it on twitter and run hashtags.

Why not?  Because it's absolutely insane, it's tokenism, it's condescending, it's racist, it's sexist, it's divisive, it's bad social science based on logical fallacies, it's a road to nowhere with no end because it has no conceptual underpinning that makes logical sense, and it's annoying.

People think Batwoman is cool.  People even think having more female superheroes is a good thing, and if it's a good show they watch it.  People don't want Batwoman hitting them over the head with wokeness every 3 minutes, they want Batwoman in cool stories.  Again, it's about how far people take their "progress".
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #171 on: March 04, 2021, 02:28:52 pm »
There is no "correct" number of gays, women, or minorities on TV.  That's the whole point.  You can include people if you like, or not, who gives a crap.  E

You evidently there is a correct number and now there are too many. Again:

"There's still room for pushing modest numbers of diversity hires to give historically oppressed groups more chances to succeed in positions you historically haven't seen them in often.  I think hiring some female directors is cool.  It's about how far we should take it."

The only way to interpret this is you think there's a threshold for where "giving minorities opportunity" ends and "filling quotas" begins which exists in your own mind and now we've passed it.

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Everyone is trying to determine the exact correct number of every division of identity on every TV show and organization.

Who is doing that? I want examples.

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I don't mind throwing a bone to people once in a while and giving people opportunities, because why not, it's good to give people chances who might not ordinarily have them.  But I'm not going to look at every single hiring decision and break it down like the census in order to make sure the proportion of people from group X or Y in the general population is proportionately represented in the staff of every organization in the country because people falsely assume that to not do so is somehow an indication of racism and sexism and then scream about it on twitter and run hashtags.

This is tokenism.

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Why not?  Because it's absolutely insane, it's tokenism, it's condescending, it's racist, it's sexist, it's divisive, it's bad social science based on logical fallacies, it's a road to nowhere with no end because it has no conceptual underpinning that makes logical sense, and it's annoying.

These are words, that's for sure, but it sure looks like your inventing people and scenarios and then getting mad at them.

Tokenism is what you're talking about: having a few different colour faces to gesture towards diversity to pretend you're addressing inequality. Whereas the real goal should be not just minority representation but actual power and influence.

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People think Batwoman is cool.  People even think having more female superheroes is a good thing, and if it's a good show they watch it.  People don't want Batwoman hitting them over the head with wokeness every 3 minutes, they want Batwoman in cool stories.  Again, it's about how far people take their "progress".

Again, you're saying "people" when you clearly mean "me". Not sure why you can't own your opinions without projecting them onto some nebulous entity called "people."

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #172 on: March 04, 2021, 02:29:49 pm »
You're boring to talk to.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #173 on: March 04, 2021, 02:31:43 pm »
You're boring to talk to.

That's not what the people say.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #174 on: March 04, 2021, 06:37:38 pm »
There is no "correct" number of gays, women, or minorities on TV.  That's the whole point.  You can include people if you like, or not, who gives a crap.  Everyone is trying to determine the exact correct number of every division of identity on every TV show and organization.  I don't mind throwing a bone to people once in a while and giving people opportunities, because why not, it's good to give people chances who might not ordinarily have them.  But I'm not going to look at every single hiring decision and break it down like the census in order to make sure the proportion of people from group X or Y in the general population is proportionately represented in the staff of every organization in the country because people falsely assume that to not do so is somehow an indication of racism and sexism and then scream about it on twitter and run hashtags.


Traditionally characters of colour had their ethnicity as part of their character.  J Lo broke that mold when she was lead in a movie in which her ethnicity wasn't referenced, she was just herself.  It hasn't always been like that though, the 'default' is white characters unless the setting is specifically depicting latinx community, black etc. 

The old mold probably doesn't bother you because you are represented.  You may feel differently if movies look nothing like your world.

 

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #175 on: March 07, 2021, 04:16:06 pm »
Traditionally characters of colour had their ethnicity as part of their character.  J Lo broke that mold when she was lead in a movie in which her ethnicity wasn't referenced, she was just herself.  It hasn't always been like that though, the 'default' is white characters unless the setting is specifically depicting latinx community, black etc. 

The old mold probably doesn't bother you because you are represented.  You may feel differently if movies look nothing like your world.


I watched Mary, Queen of Scots and there was a black and Asian Character in the movie.  They portrayed characters in royal setting of 16th Century Scotland and England.

I stand corrected, I have now seen Hollywood go overboard on representation.
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Offline MH

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #176 on: March 07, 2021, 04:36:33 pm »
Yes but... again it depends.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #177 on: March 07, 2021, 05:02:54 pm »
Definitely, which I argued initially, but as much as I appreciate representation in movies, this was a big miss.  I also see it doing more damage than good.

Offline wilber

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #178 on: March 07, 2021, 05:25:23 pm »
Bridgerton has black people playing a Duke and the Queen of England. Odd but what the hell.
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Offline MH

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #179 on: March 07, 2021, 06:16:09 pm »
Bridgerton has black people playing a Duke and the Queen of England. Odd but what the hell.

Anybody see Downfall ?  You could NOT have black people play famous people in that.

That's all.