Author Topic: Conspiracy Culture  (Read 2376 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1455
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2021, 03:18:10 pm »
The people who died there were not just Jews and they died from malnutrition, disease and forced labour.

Do you think the Trump administration and their agents would've had any qualms about the detainees dying under similar circumstances if they weren't subject to so much media scrutiny?

Online Mr. Perfect

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2021, 03:25:30 pm »
Do you think the Trump administration and their agents would've had any qualms about the detainees dying under similar circumstances if they weren't subject to so much media scrutiny?

Ummm....   so they would have been comparable if they were much, much worse? 

Sure.  Granted!  Thanks for that!   Damn Trump almost Nazi camps, but not quite!

Offline eyeball

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2021, 04:04:49 pm »
Do you think the Trump administration and their agents would've had any qualms about the detainees dying under similar circumstances if they weren't subject to so much media scrutiny?
Qualms can be eliminated.

Quote
The Milgram experiment(s) on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants, men from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment, in which they had to administer electric shocks to a "learner". These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

All our lives we've heard the question 'what compelled people to follow a monster as bad as Hitler as easily as they did' and most people have assumed that whatever it was it had to do with fascism and political ideology, of Hitler's and the Nazi's. Milgram's experiment seems to suggest these had nothing to do with it.

It maybe gauche to equate Trump with Hitler but that said it was a similarly stoked willingness that made the attack by Trump's mob against Congress possible.  I think it's more accurate to equate Trump's followers with Hitler's. The chicken and egg question is whether it's the willingness to behave badly or the willingness to stoke that behaviour that's more deplorable.  In a democracy such as the US I'd have to say it's the voting public that bears the greater load.

We should, at times, be cautious about wishing for governments to actually take their cue from electors - a positive feedback loop from cranky electors long conditioned to expect that governments who say they'll crack-down and get tough will practice what they promise might result in things like harsher than necessary internment camps and justice systems more committed to vengeance than justice.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 04:18:14 pm by eyeball »

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6362
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2021, 04:37:59 pm »
Yes, the camps comparison was bad hyperbole too...    but at least there was an actual victim in that case that they were trying to draw attention to!   This actress was trying to say that Republicans (her) are treated like Jews under the Nazis.   Oh poor her!

That's not quite what she said.  Read what she said, and then read it again. She didn't say conservatives are treated like Jews under Nazis, she said this is how it starts, by the mob being encouraged to go after others they don't like with hate.  I've even heard a bunch of people say she was saying anti-semitic stuff, which is the exact opposite of what she was saying.

I've followed her on social media for years long before her Star Wars stuff because, well, she's really hot and like Kimmy I want to bear her children.  This was among the least offensive political things she has posted.  She has made posts questioning masks, lockdowns, rushed vaccine safety, and something about election fraud on Nov. 5.  So in other words, she's a typical US conservative GOP supporter.  Some of these tweets are ill informed that I don't agree with, some of them are in fact dumb and I shake my head.

She's a latina so she's not a white nationalist and never gave any support or defense to the rioters on Jan. 6.  She in fact has posted a lot about love and compassion in the face of all the hate she's been getting over the last year, as well as a lot of defiant posts about not shutting up just because her political views aren't PC.  One can go scroll her IG page right now.

She wasn't fired just for this post.  She has been a "PR problem" for Disney for months now with users on twitter calling for her to be fired for her tweets.  They were looking for an excuse to get rid of her.  She was left out of a poster for the Mandalorian posted in Dec. even though she's been one of the main characters since Season 1. https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2021/1/25/22248392/cara-dune-gina-carano-replaced

This is about PR and profits, and nothing more.  In spite of some rabid SJW's at Lucasfilm, Disney has been sucking up to the Chinese government despite their ongoing genocide of Muslim minorities and Hong Kong crack downs etc because 1.4 billion consumers means a lot of sold movie tickets.  Disney even shrank the black character FInn on The Force Awakens poster in China because apparently they don't much like blacks in China:  https://variety.com/2015/film/news/star-wars-china-poster-controversy-john-boyega-1201653494/

Just like the NBA and every other corporation known to mankind, Disney isn't going to care about ethics and morals unless it hits them in the pocketbook.  Gina knew where this could be headed, but was unwilling to compromise her values for a paycheck, unlike Disney.  That's her decision.  As I said, I don't always agree with her politically, but I respect her for at least having the courage of her convictions.

Elvis always refused to make comments about politics because this is what happens.  Half the public is going to disagree with you and turn on you, so it's a bad business decision.  Ah well.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2021, 04:38:28 pm »
Ummm....   so they would have been comparable if they were much, much worse? 

Sure.  Granted!  Thanks for that!   Damn Trump almost Nazi camps, but not quite!

Tell me: what purpose do you think this kind of hair-splitting accomplishes and whom does it serve?

Like user wilber, you're demonstrating a profound misunderstanding of the basis of this particular comparison, which is not about comparing the degree of harm done or lives lost, but seeks to draw equivalency between the motives of the camp creators, the purposes of the camps and the morality thereof.

Offline Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2021, 04:46:18 pm »
That's not quite what she said.  Read what she said, and then read it again. She didn't say conservatives are treated like Jews under Nazis, she said this is how it starts, by the mob being encouraged to go after others they don't like with hate.

Here's what she posted:

Quote
Jews were beaten in the streets, not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors…even by children. Because history is edited, most people today don’t realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views?

(emphasis mine)

The answer for this walking advertisement of the perils of CTE is "there's a big **** different between a government indoctrinating an entire nation into hating a specific group because of their religion and race and people roasting dumb dumbs on social media for their chosen political beliefs."

Quote
This is about PR and profits, and nothing more.

LOL no **** sherlock.

Quote
Just like the NBA and every other corporation known to mankind, Disney isn't going to care about ethics and morals unless it hits them in the pocketbook.  Gina knew where this could be headed, but was unwilling to compromise her values for a paycheck, unlike Disney.  That's her decision.  As I said, I don't always agree with her politically, but I respect her for at least having the courage of her convictions.

What's hilarious is she never was asked to compromise her values, all she had to do was stop posting and she couldn't even do that. Dumb as a rock, but a rock is probably a batter actor.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6362
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2021, 05:27:10 pm »
1. I don't remember being warned, but I was always concerned that the level of dialogue would deteriorate if we didn't find a way to contain the conspiracy virus.  Of course, there's a line to be drawn with regards to expression vs. trolling and for my part I pushed for rules that would draw that line in a way to encourage good information.   That's as much as I will post now about my relationship with policy on MLW.

MLW turned out the way it did because Charles is a giant **** and a micro-managing control-freak.  And so rightfully this place was created.  But we invited mostly the leftwingers over here and left the others who defended people like BC.  So now we have our 2 echo chamber forums yay!  "Team Charles/BC" vs "Team I Hate Charles/BC".  I mostly post here because, well, Charles and BC are d!cks and their apologists can lick my taint.  My taint I tellz ya!

Quote
3. They are not creatures of the age of reason.  They are interested in winning and imposing their culture on others.   I get it, because I start to feel that way with them too sometimes.

This place is no different.  2 sides of the same coin.  MLW is dominated by rightwing racist conspiracy arseholes, and this place is filled with spiteful self-righteous leftwing arseholes.  Do you want to argue with a cattle-rancher from Alberta or a hippie dopesmoker from BC?  Take your pick!

Oh and you can tell who are the spiteful self-righteous leftwing arseholes here by who gives a thumbs-down to this post.  Just watch!  Their sh!t don't stink, no sir!  I always feel so loved here, it's a big happy family of intellectual tolerance.  But don't worry Michael, I still love you.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6362
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2021, 05:36:14 pm »
If nothing else, this Carano controversy led me to learn that they overdubbed all her dialogue in Haywire with another actress because Carano was so terrible at the actual acting parts, which makes sense given her performance in the Mandalorian is more wooden than the damn puppet's.

She was hired because she is tough and super hot, definitely not for her acting skills.  She is, as you say, a bad actress. 
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1455
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2021, 05:37:39 pm »
Ummm....   so they would have been comparable if they were much, much worse? 

Sure.  Granted!  Thanks for that!   Damn Trump almost Nazi camps, but not quite!

So we can't say that there were similarities between the two regimes because the outcomes were different... but it's not relevant to point out that the outcomes were different for reasons that had nothing to do with the regime.

Offline wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7476
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2021, 05:40:32 pm »
Except the death rate is not the basis of the comparison.

It's worth noting the concentration camps you mention were up and running almost a decade before the Final Solution was formulated.

Well what is the basis, simply that people were put in camps?

The only thing that might be considered close to equating Hitler's Germany is Pol Pot's Cambodia.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 05:43:07 pm by wilber »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online Mr. Perfect

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2021, 05:48:47 pm »


“Canada was fighting Hitler in WWII while being exactly the same as Hitler by putting the Japanese into camps.”

That would be a fair analogy, according to some here.  And yet, while both were terrible, one was much, much worse.

Canada was very bad to the Japanese-Canadians, but they weren’t Hitler levels of bad. 

That’s the problem with saying America caging up migrant kids is the same as the Jews being put into camps by the Nazis. 

It just isn’t.   Words matter.  Bad analogies that rely on hyperbole actually wreck your argument.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Online Mr. Perfect

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2021, 05:51:47 pm »
So we can't say that there were similarities between the two regimes because the outcomes were different... but it's not relevant to point out that the outcomes were different for reasons that had nothing to do with the regime.

If you think hyperbole makes your case, then go for it.   I disagree.  I think it hurts the argument and minimizes what happened to the Jewish people.

Offline wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7476
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #117 on: February 12, 2021, 06:15:13 pm »
Do you think the Trump administration and their agents would've had any qualms about the detainees dying under similar circumstances if they weren't subject to so much media scrutiny?

It's hard to deny their callousness but I don't believe that would be their intent.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6362
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #118 on: February 12, 2021, 06:20:08 pm »
What's hilarious is she never was asked to compromise her values, all she had to do was stop posting and she couldn't even do that. Dumb as a rock, but a rock is probably a batter actor.

Well that's not hateful or intolerant towards her at all.

They told her to STFU and obey the Hollywood groupthink.  The alternative was being fired because the twitter mob was coming after her head.  Meanwhile, the SJW's that run Lucasfilm mouth off with all sorts of political nonsense on their twitter accounts, including insulting fans, and nothing ever happens:  https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2020/12/28/22203209/star-wars-theory-youtube-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-controversy.

People call for them to get fired too.  Who gives a hoot, just go make good movies.  Twitter is a really toxic place.  Society has become really annoying.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1455
Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #119 on: February 13, 2021, 01:38:02 am »
It's hard to deny their callousness but I don't believe that would be their intent.

It wasn't Hitler's either prior to 1941, however, people died of mistreatment anyway (as you said in the post to which I was responding).

My point is that if there wasn't so much media and social media coverage of the border detainees, is it that much of a stretch that many detainees would've died of malnutrition and mistreatment as well?

They were raping and sterilizing even with all the attention.  Good grief, imagine if nobody was looking.