Author Topic: Car Culture Culture  (Read 1009 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2022, 12:44:53 pm »
Most of the jobs are in the largest cities, but people can't afford to live close to work in those places, so they wind up living far from work and spending long hours on the bus or in a car to get to work. So... what situation do you or Mx Marx see to this dilemma?   Reducing or eliminating "automobility" doesn't help anybody live closer to work.   It doesn't make housing more affordable. Just the opposite... it would reduce the range from which access to work is viable, which would increase demand for housing in areas that are near places where people work.

Making housing more affordable in places where jobs are by increasing supply and density (Canadian major cities are some of the least dense in the world). Improving transit to exurban areas (building rapid transit for example). And of course:

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The increasing use of working from home gives people more flexibility in where to live. For many jobs all you need is a power outlet and an internet connection.  During the pandemic, Lindsey's brother and his family moved from Calgary to Kim Country because his wife was allowed to work from home and no longer required to be physically in the office.  Those Starlink satellites that Mx Marx hates so much open up even wider possibilities for where you could work, depending on what kind of work you do.

If you're working from home, you don't need to rely on a car as much since work commutes constitute about a quarter of all vehicle trips.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2022, 01:01:02 pm »
I hear this type of argument all the time when I talk about the absurdly giant pick up trucks that dominate the market and our roads. "Well maybe people need them for work or recreation" and like yeah some do, but the vast majority simply do not. So I don't think your enjoyment of niche recreational activities are a compelling argument in the face of the myriad social and environmental harms of living in a car-centric society.

I think it's telling that you consider hiking and camping and hunting to be "niche recreational activities" in this country.  If gas continues to cost $2/liter, it'll do more to get those lifted monster-trucks off the road than any number of snarky columns from Mx Marx.

I would love to see any cite that shows Paris Marx or anyone else calling for a complete and total ban on personal automobiles. Without such evidence, this whole thing smacks of a strawman.

They're not calling for a complete and total ban, they just don't want people to drive.

I'd be genuinely curious what percentage of vehicle trips are taken by choice for pleasure or recreation vs commuting to work, getting groceries, schlepping kids to school and activities. I'd be shocked if it was even 10%.

Does it matter? I use my vehicle primarily for recreation because I usually walk to work and the grocery store.  So?  If I was using my vehicle for that stuff in addition to recreation, would that make it more legitimate for me to use it for recreation?

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Ultimately what Marx is advocating for is a world where we average folks lose our "automobility". They propose that the benefits of a car-free society would more than make up for the loss of the freedom to travel when I want, to go to the places I want, and so-on. I'm highly skeptical.
Because obviously it's all about you?

As if this was a decision I made for all of us?  We as a society have collectively made this choice.

If that weren't the case, why isn't anybody running for public office on a platform of getting rid of cars?  Why doesn't somebody run to be mayor of Vancouver or Toronto or even Dethbridge with the promise of attacking cars?  Why did Environment Minister Stephane Greasebault get all mad when somebody accused him of wanting to tax trucks? 

Maybe this is something Justin and the Superfriends can jump on for the next election.  "We know that there are many responsible vehicle owners in Canada, but you don't need an SUV to bring home the groceries."

You don't just need to convince me that it's selfish and unreasonable for me to want to go snowshoeing in the mountains, you also have to convince a mom that it's selfish and unreasonable to want to drop off one kid and his gear at hockey practice then drop off the other kid and her trombone at music class before she goes to work. and so on.


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Also, as i said in my OP, the "freedom to travel" is not what it seems when it involves being chained to a costly and constantly depreciating asset.

It's exactly what it seems.

Yeah only rich urbanites would benefit from improved air quality, less dangerous streets, more financial freedom etc etc. Come on jack.

When I say "snob", I don't use it as a synonym for "rich". I'm skeptical that either Mx Marx or yourself are financially better off than most of the people you look down your noses at.

Improved air quality?  Air quality is better now than it used to be thanks to cleaner-running and more efficient vehicles. That only continue to improve as hybrids and EVs take an increasing share of the market.

Safer streets?  Sure, that's fine. No objection at all.  I'm all for designing cities in a way that makes it easier for people to walk without getting hit by cars.

Financial freedom? I don't need Mx Marx to help me with my budget. I can decide for myself what's affordable.

 -k
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 01:32:48 pm by kimmy »
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
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Offline MH

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2022, 01:15:35 pm »
You joyless sourpusses... pooping all over a fun thread...
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2022, 01:35:04 pm »
I think it's telling that you consider hiking and camping and hunting to be "niche recreational activities" in this country.  If gas continues to cost $2/liter, it'll do more to get those lifted monster-trucks off the road than any number of snarky columns from Mx Marx.

Why is it telling? And they are niche recreational activities.

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They're not calling for a complete and total ban, they just don't want people to drive.

OK: what's wrong with that?

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Does it matter? I use my vehicle primarily for recreation because I usually walk to work and the grocery store.  So?  If I was using my vehicle for that stuff in addition to recreation, would that make it more legitimate for me to use it for recreation?

I think my point was that "of course we need cars I take mine out once a month to go camping" as a defence of the ubiquity of cars is kinda goofy when the vast majority of car trips are for far more mundane activities.

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As if this was a decision I made for all of us?  We as a society have collectively made this choice.

Not really.  Car manufacturers, oil companies and real estate developers all had a hand in it. And even if "we made this choice collectively" that doesn't mean it was the right choice or that it's irreversible.

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If that weren't the case, why isn't anybody running for public office on a platform of getting rid of cars?  Why doesn't somebody run to be mayor of Vancouver or Toronto or even Dethbridge with the promise of attacking cars?  Why did Environment Minister Stephane Greasebault get all mad when somebody accused him of wanting to tax trucks? 

Maybe this is something Justin and the Superfriends can jump on for the next election.  "We know that there are many responsible vehicle owners in Canada, but you don't need an SUV to bring home the groceries."

You don't just need to convince me that it's selfish and unreasonable for me to want to go snowshoeing in the mountains, you also have to convince a mom that it's selfish and unreasonable to want to drop off one kid and his gear at hockey practice then drop off the other kid and her trombone at music class before she goes to work.

"If getting rid of cars is good why isn't anyone campaigning on getting rid of cars" is a simplistic and frankly ridiculous argument that doesn't actually address any of the anti-car arguments.

Nobody is running on this because car culture and car-dependency is deeply entrenched and protected by powerful interests. This does not make it good!

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It's exactly what it seems.

It's not. It's a trade off you're happy to make. For others, it's not a choice at all.

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Safer streets?  Sure, that's fine. No objection at all.  I'm all for designing cities in a way that makes it easier for people to walk without getting hit by cars.

One way to do that is to have fewer cars on the road or not build communities that prioritize the movement of automobiles above all else. But drivers hate that so it doesn't happen.

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Financial freedom? I don't need Mx Marx to help me with my budget. I can decide for myself what's affordable

Not sure how this applies to someone who isn't user kimmy.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 12:26:55 pm by Black Dog »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2022, 02:31:03 pm »
You joyless sourpusses... pooping all over a fun thread...

This was never a fun thread.

But I'd rather talk about car fun.
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Online Bubbermiley

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2022, 02:47:02 pm »
This was never a fun thread.

But I'd rather talk about car fun.
I went through a big box of old matchbox, husky, corgi, hot wheels, and dinky toys from my childhood the other day. All made in England, except the hot wheels.
I really despise going through stuff from my childhood, but they're pretty cool little things. I even have a hacked up dinky toy james bond car with ejection seat and a nice corgi batmobile with the batboat and trailer.
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Offline MH

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2022, 05:11:07 pm »
 Hot Wheels were the best 😀

Offline Black Dog

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Offline MH

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2023, 03:55:16 pm »
Oh Jesus christ.

Hey everyone I know who we should allow to design society for us. Its Black Dog the human jailcell who locks themselves in their basement with their 7 cats and doesn't want to travel beyond a 15m walking distance from their house.

You post as though BD isn't able to astral project.... weird take
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Offline wilber

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2023, 10:19:44 am »
I went through a big box of old matchbox, husky, corgi, hot wheels, and dinky toys from my childhood the other day. All made in England, except the hot wheels.
I really despise going through stuff from my childhood, but they're pretty cool little things. I even have a hacked up dinky toy james bond car with ejection seat and a nice corgi batmobile with the batboat and trailer.

I also have a bunch of Dinky Toys from the 50's, including old front engine Grand Prix cars and military vehicles. Many were birthday and Christmas gifts from English relatives.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2023, 03:11:31 pm »
They're really going in on this "15 minute cities are a WEF plot" thing.

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To many urbanites, a short commute and having your grocery shop, favorite bar, and library branch all within walking distance are markers of a higher quality of life. But recent attempts to reduce commute times to 15 minutes and make cities more walkable have led to waves of weird conspiracy theories about an encroaching police state that must be stopped at all costs.

The “15-minute city,” as this design paradigm has been dubbed, is not a city-dweller’s dream in this addled conception, but an open-air surveillance prison nightmare that is being imposed by shadowy forces.

Edmonton, Canada is the latest city getting backlash, including a planned in-person protest that will have a prominent anti-vaccine conspiracist in attendance. “You will spend 90% of your life in this 15 minute area as they are monitoring your ‘carbon footprint,’” the flyer reads. In January, another protest in the U.K. was held to oppose 15-minute city proposals in Oxford, where participants connected the plan to COVID-19 lockdowns and vague notions of government control.

So many lols:

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In response to Sohi’s plan, conspiracy theorists began circulating a map  purportedly of Edmonton, color-coded into separate neighborhoods, with a text box saying that vehicles will not be permitted to drive between zones. Except the map was actually of Canterbury, England, which had rolled out its own 15-minute city proposal. Edmonton has made no proposal to hinder travel between neighborhoods, and its plans are mainly focused around ensuring neighborhoods have a healthy mix of businesses and services available.

Between this and the conspiracytards' propensity for climate denial, I'm wondering if the hand of Big Oil is in the mix here.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2023, 03:49:16 pm »
They're really going in on this "15 minute cities are a WEF plot" thing.

We've been over this.  Stuff within 15m walk i mean sure, especially good for urban folks.  Creating street no-go zones to frustrate drivers into walking = crazy lefty loon idea by nuts like yourself and urban-dwelling yuppies who hate cars.

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Between this and the conspiracytards' propensity for climate denial, I'm wondering if the hand of Big Oil is in the mix here.

Big oil = Leftwing conspiracytard alert, according to your logic.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2023, 04:25:47 pm »
We've been over this.  Stuff within 15m walk i mean sure, especially good for urban folks.  Creating street no-go zones to frustrate drivers into walking = crazy lefty loon idea by nuts like yourself and urban-dwelling yuppies who hate cars.

Oh no we can't fwustwate poor widdle dwivers UwU.

Large portions of urban and suburban spaces are de facto no go zones for pedestrians, cyclists and anyone else who isn't behind the wheel of a car so excuse me if IDGAF about drivers being inconvenienced.

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Big oil = Leftwing conspiracytard alert, according to your logic.

Concocting a conspiracy theory about open air prisons and kill boxes from some anodyne powerpoint on WEF's website or whatever is conspiracytard stuff. Hypothesizing that Big Oil might be spreading disinformation about climate change and promoting car dependency after they've spent much of the past 100 years doing both is just paying attention.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2023, 05:18:45 pm »
Oh no we can't fwustwate poor widdle dwivers UwU.

Finally you're talking like yourself now.  What took so long?

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Large portions of urban and suburban spaces are de facto no go zones for pedestrians, cyclists and anyone else who isn't behind the wheel of a car so excuse me if IDGAF about drivers being inconvenienced.

You mean the middle of roads?  LOL.  Stop crying (and talking) like a baby.  Yes we know you don't GAF about anyone besides your own loony utopian ideas nobody but loons like yourself want because you're a Stalinist.

Nobody cares what you think.  You have no power, except one vote like everyone else.  The power belongs to the people.  If cities start doing dumb stuff people don't want the city councilors and mayors will lose their jobs.  That's how democracies work.  Let them try whatever schemes they want, it will be fun to see them unemployed.

As for Edmonton, seems fine since it doesn't look mandatory:

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The city says it wants to make it possible — not mandatory, but possible — to get to those places without a car, by walking, biking, or taking transit.

https://edmonton.taproot.news/stories/2021/city-aims-for-edmontonians-to-live-more-locally-with-15-minute-districts
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Car Culture Culture
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2023, 05:27:47 pm »
Concocting a conspiracy theory about open air prisons and kill boxes from some anodyne powerpoint on WEF's website or whatever is conspiracytard stuff. Hypothesizing that Big Oil might be spreading disinformation about climate change and promoting car dependency after they've spent much of the past 100 years doing both is just paying attention.

I have no idea what a kill box is.  Don't you support the no-go zones?  Sounds sorta like open-air prisons to me.  The 15 min city on the WEF website.  There's no conspiracy, its right in the open for everyone to see.  The elites go to these Davos thingies and come back with these Build Back Better ideas.  Chrystia Freeland seems like a big WEF fan.  She's in charge of Canada's federal budget FFS.

Maybe one day we'll own nothing, and we'll be happier.
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