Author Topic: Cancel Culture Culture  (Read 17877 times)

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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2021, 08:39:37 pm »
1. I am wondering out loud whether we have to imbue Canada as a moral place, and the examples were points upon which morality is highly discussed.

No.  Places aren’t moral or immoral. 


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3. Ok, so you are saying that democracy is not "good" inherently, but that it has effects that we as Canadians prefer over the alternative.  Ok.  I don't think you are WRONG or anything, but it seems like a sort of ... Soviet ... or philosophical way to teach governance to children. 

Again, not wrong but seems out of reach.

I have no idea how else you would evaluate it.  The Soviets just lied about how great their system was. It’s not Soviet to honestly evaluate the system;  its actually the opposite of what the Soviets did.

Telling children that democracy is inherently good is just religion.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 08:46:28 pm by the_squid »
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2021, 08:49:47 pm »
1. No.  Places aren’t moral or immoral. 


2. I have no idea how else you would evaluate it.  The Soviets just lied about how great their system was. It’s not Soviet to honestly evaluate the system;  its actually the opposite of what the Soviets did.

Telling children that democracy is inherently good is just religion.
1. Canada isn't just a place, though.
2. And the Americans ?

Jeez, maybe Canada is the first postnational country after all.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2021, 08:59:01 pm »
1. Canada isn't just a place, though.

Well, yeah…. It is.  I’m not talking in metaphors…. If you are saying that Canada is actually Canada’s form of government, laws, etc then we are talking about 2 different things and I would ask you to be literal when you’re using terms.

If you’re talking about Canada, as a whole entity, then I would say it’s moral in some areas and immoral in others.  Each ‘thing’ should be judged on its own merits.

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2. And the Americans ?

Jingoism is strong in those people….  Critical thinking and humility are not.

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Jeez, maybe Canada is the first postnational country after all.

How so?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 09:12:13 pm by the_squid »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2021, 10:37:35 pm »
You seem to think this doesn't happen today.

You seem to think this doesn't happen today.

I'm under no illusions of such.  Of course it happens everyday, everywhere.  It needs to be minimized as much as possible.  Cops aren't allowed to put partisan bumper stickers on their squad cars or uniforms either.

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And lso... why do you think *I* would feel something ?  Do you see me pushing hard on this one way or the other ?  To the point where I would feel something or maybe get upset ?

You're a human being with biases and viewpoints like all of us.  I didn't say you disagreed, but some might, as may you.

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Everything is political.  There are people who think that Remembrance Day legitimizes war, yes.

There are necessary wars and optional wars.  Soldiers don't have any say on whether we go to war or not, those decisions are made by politicians.  Either way, having a military is not optional, unless of course you don't want to have a sovereign country at all.  If you support Canada being a country in any way there's no other option than supporting the people who risk their lives defending it because it wouldn't exist without them.  That's very, very different than supporting political policy.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #109 on: June 15, 2021, 04:48:25 am »

How so?

It seems to me that you have gone beyond removing jingoism, but arrived at a place where you don't believe in teaching students that our culture is valuable. 

Again - this doesn't upset me or evoke opposition in me.  But I will bet that perhaps only the Scandinavian nations are so clinical in considering their national attributes.

And I believe the politics of education necessitate teaching kids that Canada "is good"... because of diversity, etc.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #110 on: June 15, 2021, 04:57:26 am »
I'm under no illusions of such.  Of course it happens everyday, everywhere.  It needs to be minimized as much as possible.  Cops aren't allowed to put partisan bumper stickers on their squad cars or uniforms either.

How would you do it ?  A sticker on a bumper is a concrete and real thing.

A few sentences spoken in a classroom by a teacher... a slight shading of meaning to imply that Canada is "better"....

To make people less nationalistic is a long project, and Canada (evidenced by the comments here) is a lot farther down the line than most but the counter-programming from everyone... from Justin Trudeau to Tim Hortons.... is strong.

And - yes - you can still have strong belief in Canadian values, think it's better than other countries, and LOVE Canada... despite our misdeeds.   No project of this magnitude can be dismissed by crimes committed in its name... the Church... Communism.... they endure with their black marks...

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You're a human being with biases and viewpoints like all of us.  I didn't say you disagreed, but some might, as may you.

Yes you are getting at the politics of education, and my bet is that it's politically 'ok' to teach kids that Canada is "good", as dumbed down as that is.

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There are necessary wars and optional wars.  Soldiers don't have any say on whether we go to war or not, those decisions are made by politicians.  Either way, having a military is not optional, unless of course you don't want to have a sovereign country at all.  If you support Canada being a country in any way there's no other option than supporting the people who risk their lives defending it because it wouldn't exist without them.  That's very, very different than supporting political policy.

Some might disagree, though, as you say. 

----

It seems like we're talking about: what *should* be taught, in terms of national moral sphere/jingoistic/patriotic material ... as well as what plays and can be managed politically.

I don't think there's much disagreement here, anyway.  I am surprised a little at the dry take on Canada's moral standing, and how you and Squid feel that should be taught, but I don't disagree with you. 

It's an interesting question for sure.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #111 on: June 15, 2021, 11:28:33 am »
It seems to me that you have gone beyond removing jingoism, but arrived at a place where you don't believe in teaching students that our culture is valuable. 

No, I didn’t.  I think probably overall our culture is the one to strive for, with many exceptions.   But each piece needs introspection and evaluation, not just an overall rosy outlook. 

I don’t believe that everything within our culture is great, nor do I believe that everything is bad.  I think there has to be a nuanced view, or else you are just spewing rhetoric, not actually dealing in anything objective. 

Saying “our culture is great” doesn’t seem to leave any room for introspection and leads to extremes at the ends of the political spectrums where one side says “everything was great 50 years ago, why are you trying to change us” and at the other end they’re  saying “everything about our culture needs to change.  We’re a culture of colonialism and sexism and it needs to be torn down”.

The truth is somewhere in between, but you can’t get there if you’re teaching that “Canadian culture is great”.


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Again - this doesn't upset me or evoke opposition in me.  But I will bet that perhaps only the Scandinavian nations are so clinical in considering their national attributes.

Maybe that’s the smart way….

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And I believe the politics of education necessitate teaching kids that Canada "is good"... because of diversity, etc.

What does ‘because of diversity’ mean?  Why would that necessitate jingoism?
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #112 on: June 15, 2021, 12:17:04 pm »
No, I didn’t.  I think probably overall our culture is the one to strive for, with many exceptions.   But each piece needs introspection and evaluation, not just an overall rosy outlook.

So it's "one to strive for" but you don't believe in teaching students that it's valuable ?

Are you just ... argumentative ?  What's the big difference ? 

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Saying “our culture is great” doesn’t seem to leave any room for introspection and leads to extremes at the ends of the political spectrums where one side says “everything was great 50 years ago, why are you trying to change us” and at the other end they’re  saying “everything about our culture needs to change.  We’re a culture of colonialism and sexism and it needs to be torn down”.

Sure, I believe the extremes are to be avoided but you can say it's valuable and meaningful... with problems that need to be acknowledged and considered deeply.

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The truth is somewhere in between, but you can’t get there if you’re teaching that “Canadian culture is great”.


Maybe that’s the smart way….

Ok, yes.

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What does ‘because of diversity’ mean?  Why would that necessitate jingoism?

Jingoism, in order to appear subjective, has to provide a reason right ?

Like "America is great because WE HAVE FREEDOM".  It doesn't matter that the reason is fraught with problems/inaccuracies.

So Canada's is that we have diversity and inclusion, maybe. 

Anyway, we are not in disagreement - at all.  Teaching that what we have is valuable, but part of that is because we are able to look inwardly.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #113 on: June 15, 2021, 12:26:17 pm »
So it's "one to strive for" but you don't believe in teaching students that it's valuable ?

Where did I say that?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 01:43:59 pm by the_squid »
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #114 on: June 15, 2021, 01:07:30 pm »

Where did I say that?

Me: [you] arrived at a place where you don't believe in teaching students that our culture is valuable.

You: No, I didn’t.  I think probably overall our culture is the one to strive for, with many exceptions.   But each piece needs introspection and evaluation, not just an overall rosy outlook.

So... I guess you DO think that our culture, such as it is, is valuable and worthy.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #115 on: June 15, 2021, 07:58:01 pm »
So... I guess you DO think that our culture, such as it is, is valuable and worthy.

The good parts. 

But I don’t think kids should be taught that Canada is inherently good. 

Education should concentrate on teaching critical thinking skills…. How to think, not what to think.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2021, 09:58:55 am »
This on its face a story about how the astroturfing campaign against critical race theory but is also a neat little insight into the kind of people who watch Fox News and get sucked in by conspiracy theories. They're the same kind of people who will write you passive aggressive notes if you get grass clippings on their portion of the sidewalk or who will yell at you for parking on the street in front of their house: you know, ****.

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McBreairty became Maine’s chapter leader for No Left Turn last summer. He has since put up a billboard-size sign of a school board member’s face on his lawn and said it was surrounded by rat traps to prevent theft. “This is a war with the left,” McBreairty said in an email to NBC News, “and in war, tactics and strategy can become blurry.” The fight has only escalated, and it shows no sign of slowing.
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In Nevada, Washoe County’s school board halted in-person meetings in April, after residents filled a large auditorium and lobbed insults and threats of violence during the public comment portion. Meetings opened to the public again in May, in a small office where only a few speakers can be present at a time.

Undeterred, hundreds of conservative activists and local residents, many without children in the district, according to their public testimony, waited in the Reno sun until their names were called to speak out against critical race theory and the board’s recent adoption of a student-led anti-discrimination resolution.

And this is a bit too on the nose:

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“This is an opportunity for what I feel like I've been screaming from the rooftops about,” said Karen England, executive director for Nevada Family Alliance, a conservative nonprofit group known for its efforts to end Drag Queen Story Hour at local libraries. The group recently proposed placing body cameras on teachers to ensure they aren’t teaching critical race theory.

During the most recent meeting, which lasted 11 hours, speakers railed at school board members, calling them Marxists, racists, Nazis and child abusers, among other epithets.

Truly unhinged behaviour.

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In South Kingstown, Rhode Island, the parent of an incoming kindergartener submitted over 200 public records requests in two months, seeking copies of middle and high school curricula, lists of all books related to gender available in the library and 10 years worth of harassment complaints and emails. The district said it would take 300 hours to compile all of the records requested.

These are not people who are genuinely concerned for their children's education. They are psychos.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #117 on: June 16, 2021, 10:51:40 am »
What's the takeaway for students? Is there an educational value in that or is it just patting ourselves on the back?
Maybe a chicken and egg question. Is Canada a decent country because of its people or are Canadians a decent people because of their country? All too often there's a fair bit of basking in the glow of good news while taking credit for it going on, especially amongst governments and other institutions and organizations. Occasionally these will blow a little smoke up the public's rear end but it's clearly motivated by self-interest.  Fiddling with education systems to produce a desired result seems as self-serving as gerrymandering in a lot of ways.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #118 on: June 16, 2021, 11:21:04 am »
Maybe a chicken and egg question. Is Canada a decent country because of its people or are Canadians a decent people because of their country?

I think institutions that are set up to attain decent results, whether on purpose or by accident, make the country a decent place.

For instance, compare our elections with American elections…. 

Elections Canada, the faceless bureaucrats who follow rules set out by parliaments of the past, ensure fair elections and that they are fairly equal across the country as well as the districts being as fair as possible under the rules.  Very little drama in our elections, other than the results.

USA?  Gerrymandering, unequal voting rules between states, states that try to suppress minority voting, etc, etc.

This is a case where the institution set out by past parliaments have resulted in making Canada a decent country.  Are there people that are actively trying to cheat at elections?  Of course.  Not every person is decent.  The institutions have to be robust enough to withstand those pressures. 
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #119 on: June 16, 2021, 11:44:01 am »
The point though is whether this is something that our public schools should be instilling in our children?

I don't think students should be warped into the same political ideology of their teacher or the political leanings of the party in power in a given province, whether right or left.  Nobody on the left wants their kids turned into Trump supporters and no parent on the right wants their kids to become a Marxists because their teacher told them it was the best ideology and Trump sucks.

There is an argument to be made of making our young students into good citizens, which simply means knowing some history (good and bad and everything in between), the basics of how our government works (civics) etc.  Playing the national anthem in the morning.  The same things an immigrant needs to know in order to pass a citizenship test.  You can let students debate, just don't have the teacher lead kids to have one opinion or another.  Teach kids about residential schools, then let them debate.

I think people in Canada know extremely little about their country, both good and bad.  It's pathetic.  Canadians know more about the US than Canada.  If you don't know anything about your country it's harder to feel connected to it and the other people that live in it.  If you feel you don't share anything with other Canadians across the country you will have less national unity.  On the other hand you don't want to be spreading false narratives and slanted propaganda to people just to build a sense of nationalism.  Just teach kids the facts of history and I think they will come to connect with their country more.  If they don't that's their choice too.

I think it's important to feel like you're a part of the national family that is Canada, and in order to do that we need to listen to the stories of everyone in this country so we understand each other more.  I like learning about the refugee stories of different immigrant groups too, it makes me understand why they came to Canada, and gets rid of the "othering" thoughts we tend to do when we don't understand somebody.  What are the stories of the Quebecois?  Different indigenous groups?  People on the east coast?  If you still don't like each other well that's fine but at least you understand them.

The idea that history is an objective set of facts would be rejected by most historians. History is as much about the production of narratives as it is about past events. The mere act of choosing which "facts" to teach is itself a subjective and biased action. That's why teaching critical thinking matters.

Also, if you're gearing your education system with the express purpose of promoting national unity through creating shared historical narratives, congrats, you're doing a propaganda.

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