Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 15556 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4318
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1965 on: June 12, 2021, 03:14:44 pm »
The deal is....

The woman made anti-trans comments online (in person too maybe ?) and her contract was not renewed.  She sent it for judicial review and the decision was initially affirmed, and now was turned over with the comment that her speech is protected unless it's akin to "Naziism and totalitarianism".

So "free speech" as such was never in question, it was the consequences of her stating her opinion.

What it means now is that apparently you can state "Women should speak only when spoken to" in the workplace and not get fired, but if you say "I think that China's government has been effective against Climate Change" you can be fired.

....

I should have been a lawyer.  Really really should have.

I think  you should really really keep your day job.


There has never been any claim that Forstater harassed a co-worker or anyone in person. The evidence presented against her at the original employment hearing consisted of stuff she said on Twitter.  As well, there was no suggestion that her employer had suffered reputational damage from being associated with her. She's not in a public-facing job, she is an accountant, probably nobody knew who her employer was until she took them to court.

The ruling doesn't prevent employers from protecting workers from harassment (the ruling states this explicitly).   If Forstater had indeed been harassing a co-worker, nothing in this ruling would have protected her.

Quote
I would say it would be a lot easier to isolate rights surrounding 'offensive' views in the workplace as being actionable than to allow 'philosophical opinions' not akin to "Nazism or totalitarianism" (?) to be protected.  From my POV people who believe women shouldn't have the right to vote can now work at a lipstick store. 

Always could.  Are you so privileged that you can't imagine having to work alongside someone whose values differ from your own?  I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that I have worked alongside people who thought that women belonged in the home, and gay people will be punished by god, and western women are harlots, and blondes have low intelligence, and women can't do technology,  and probably many other things that I haven't even thought of. 

But unless those ideas actually manifest themselves in the workplace, there's nothing I can do about it, and no reason for me to try.

 -k
Masked for your safety.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline MH

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8658
Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1966 on: June 12, 2021, 04:06:31 pm »


 

But unless those ideas actually manifest themselves in the workplace, there's nothing I can do about it, and no reason for me to try.

 -k

I suppose you're right.

Please stop making this about my personal take on this. [Edited: I mean my values around trans rights.  I don't think either of us are likely to change much.  I'm looking for a way for divergent values to coexist in the public moral space]

 I keep asking. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 11:04:33 am by MH »

Offline Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1967 on: June 13, 2021, 10:16:18 am »
Always could.  Are you so privileged that you can't imagine having to work alongside someone whose values differ from your own?  I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that I have worked alongside people who thought that women belonged in the home, and gay people will be punished by god, and western women are harlots, and blondes have low intelligence, and women can't do technology,  and probably many other things that I haven't even thought of. 

But unless those ideas actually manifest themselves in the workplace, there's nothing I can do about it, and no reason for me to try.


I'm sure if you discovered a colleagues social media posts expressing any of those views, you'd be perfectly happy continuing to work side by side with them, right?

Then again maybe you could bond with them over your mutual loathing for trans people.
Dumb Dumb x 2 View List

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4318
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1968 on: Today at 01:34:27 am »
I'm sure if you discovered a colleagues social media posts expressing any of those views, you'd be perfectly happy continuing to work side by side with them, right?

I suppose I could stalk my co-workers on social media. Why would I?  I used to work at a Microsoft tech support call center in Edmonton's Millwoods district where at least half of my coworkers were Muslim. I imagine that if I had cared enough I could have found which mosques they went to and found out if those mosques said misogynist or homophobic things. Why would I?

One of my current coworkers is an older lady. She goes to a far-right fringe church. She used to tell homophobic jokes around the office sometimes. I didn't say anything. I took my girlfriend to the office Christmas party a couple of years ago. After that she stopped telling homophobic jokes at the office. She asks how Lindsey is. She tried to make a funny one time--  I came to work with a bandage under my eye because of a skin issue, and she said "well, so she finally hit you."  I was kind of surprised, but shrugged it off.  Later on she came up to me and said "I'm sorry for what I said earlier. I was trying to make a joke but it was in bad taste."  I thanked her.

I can't make her agree with my life choices. I wouldn't try.

But, next time she is with her loony friends from the loony church and they start complaining about "the queers", she might say "you know, we have a gay girl at the office, and by gosh she is just as nice as you could imagine and she is just like everybody else."  She might say that.  She might not.   But if I searched her out on Facebook and found out she was posting homophobic jokes, and complained to my boss about it, she certainly wouldn't.  And I wouldn't win anything from doing that. Wouldn't change her attitude. Wouldn't inspire her to speak up to her friends.  Would probably just reinforce negative preconceptions she has. So why would I?  What would I gain from trying to police what a coworker might be saying on Facebook?

Then again maybe you could bond with them over your mutual loathing for trans people.

This is SAD and LOW ENERGY and I wouldn't normally waste the effort respond to something like this. But I do have to address a couple of things.

The first is that accusing people of transphobia just isn't the zinger you guys think it is. Not any more.  At this point pretty much any opinion held by normal sane people is transphobic to you guys, so who gives a crap anymore. At this point it's allegedly transphobic to say that males shouldn't be in women's sports, that males shouldn't be in women's prisons, that you don't think girls should have to shower or change with testicle-people, that you don't want "girldick" if you're a lesbian (or that you do want dick if you're a gay man) or that you think being a woman isn't a matter of clothes or makeup or "a feeling". If that's transphobic, then guilty as charged and I couldn't care less.

And second: I don't loathe trans people.  Not in general.  Certainly some of them I do loathe. Deranged activists like Chase Strangio and Dr Veronica Ivy, for example. Or the disgusting anime-obsessed Lolita-p0rn worshiping "transbian" incel creeps at 4chan and Reddit. Those people are just revolting.

But in general I don't hate trans people. Take "Pips" Bunce, for example. I don't hate Pips. Pips is just a gender non-conforming individual trying to find an outlet for his gender expression. I can't hate that. I'm gender non-conforming myself. I can't hate somebody for living outside the box. I completely empathize with a man who wants to be effeminate sometimes.

I don't hate Pips Bunce. What I do hate is that wokies expect us to believe that a guy who wears a dress to work twice a week is "a woman".

Pips Bunce isn't the nutcase. You guys are the nutcases.

 -k
« Last Edit: Today at 01:45:28 am by kimmy »
Masked for your safety.
Agree Agree x 1 Winner Winner x 1 View List

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4318
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1969 on: Today at 01:59:23 am »
I suppose you're right.

Please stop making this about my personal take on this. [Edited: I mean my values around trans rights.  I don't think either of us are likely to change much.  I'm looking for a way for divergent values to coexist in the public moral space]

 I keep asking.


I have no idea what you're talking about.  I wasn't trying to change your view in regard to trans rights. I was pointing out that:

 1) you made up facts in regard to the Maya Forstater case. You posited an imaginary trans coworker who was subjected to imaginary harassment by Forstater. False. Erroneous. Fake news. You can't just make **** up to make your side sound more plausible.

 2) your analysis of the result of Forstater's win was superfuckenwrong. Doesn't give anyone the right to harass a coworker (the judge explicitly said this in his ruling.) Your claim that this ruling means someone could tell his female coworkers that women should speak only when spoken to, for example, is a load of crap. The ruling also doesn't even mean that Forstater's former employer is obliged to hire her back, or even that they were wrong in not renewing her contract. What the ruling establishes is that the first judge erred in declaring that Forstater's views were "not worthy of respect" and therefore not a protected philosophical belief. 

3) your complaint that the ruling means that "people who believe women shouldn't have the right to vote can now work at a lipstick store" is wildly off the mark because the lipstick store (or any other work environment) doesn't actually have any power to evaluate what you believe... only how you act.

And again... the notion that having a coworker who might have contrary beliefs is some kind of hardship is ... ridiculous. The idea of working in an environment where everybody approves of each others' values is a luxury that most of us will never have, and I'm pretty much gobsmacked that you thought this was a serious criticism of the ruling. I'm just stunned that you could be that out of touch.


 -k
Masked for your safety.

Offline MH

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8658
Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1970 on: Today at 08:06:54 am »
Quote

1. I have no idea what you're talking about.   

2. you made up facts in regard to the Maya Forstater case. You posited an imaginary trans coworker who was subjected to imaginary harassment by Forstater. False. Erroneous. Fake news. You can't just make **** up to make your side sound more plausible.

3. Your claim that this ruling means someone could tell his female coworkers that women should speak only when spoken to, for example, is a load of crap.

4. What the ruling establishes is that the first judge erred in declaring that Forstater's views were "not worthy of respect" and therefore not a protected philosophical belief.

5. your complaint that the ruling means that "people who believe women shouldn't have the right to vote can now work at a lipstick store" is wildly off the mark because the lipstick store (or any other work environment) doesn't actually have any power to evaluate what you believe... only how you act.

6. And again... the notion that having a coworker who might have contrary beliefs is some kind of hardship is ... ridiculous.

7. The idea of working in an environment where everybody approves of each others' values is a luxury that most of us will never have, and I'm pretty much gobsmacked that you thought this was a serious criticism of the ruling. I'm just stunned that you could be that out of touch.


 -k

1. "Are you so privileged that you can't imagine having to work alongside someone whose values differ from your own?"  My personal point of view should be discussed on its merits, not on my personal attributes thank you.

2. You're accusing me of lying ?  That's a new one.  Of course I didn't lie.  If I misunderstood something then I apologize.  I thought Black Dog stated something about this a few pages back.

3. I don't agree.  If it's one's "personal philosophy" and you state it in a non-harrassing way then it's ok apparently.

4. What is a 'protected philosophical belief' if it doesn't protect you from being fired ?  What are you protected from ?  Speech is already allowed, and can't be stopped by the government.

5. Not any more, no.

6. Having offensive beliefs was never the question, but expressing them public was.

7. You are making this personal for some reason.  Again let me state that I don't care either way, I really don't.  I just want clarity...

Offline Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1971 on: Today at 10:59:22 am »
I suppose I could stalk my co-workers on social media. Why would I?  I used to work at a Microsoft tech support call center in Edmonton's Millwoods district where at least half of my coworkers were Muslim. I imagine that if I had cared enough I could have found which mosques they went to and found out if those mosques said misogynist or homophobic things. Why would I?

One of my current coworkers is an older lady. She goes to a far-right fringe church. She used to tell homophobic jokes around the office sometimes. I didn't say anything. I took my girlfriend to the office Christmas party a couple of years ago. After that she stopped telling homophobic jokes at the office. She asks how Lindsey is. She tried to make a funny one time--  I came to work with a bandage under my eye because of a skin issue, and she said "well, so she finally hit you."  I was kind of surprised, but shrugged it off.  Later on she came up to me and said "I'm sorry for what I said earlier. I was trying to make a joke but it was in bad taste."  I thanked her.

I can't make her agree with my life choices. I wouldn't try.

But, next time she is with her loony friends from the loony church and they start complaining about "the queers", she might say "you know, we have a gay girl at the office, and by gosh she is just as nice as you could imagine and she is just like everybody else."  She might say that.  She might not.   But if I searched her out on Facebook and found out she was posting homophobic jokes, and complained to my boss about it, she certainly wouldn't.  And I wouldn't win anything from doing that. Wouldn't change her attitude. Wouldn't inspire her to speak up to her friends.  Would probably just reinforce negative preconceptions she has. So why would I?  What would I gain from trying to police what a coworker might be saying on Facebook?

That's all real interesting like, but you didn't actually answer the question which wasn't about "stalking" people's social media or changing minds about gay people or whatever the hell else you're on about here,


Quote
This is SAD and LOW ENERGY and I wouldn't normally waste the effort respond to something like this. But I do have to address a couple of things.

The first is that accusing people of transphobia just isn't the zinger you guys think it is. Not any more.  At this point pretty much any opinion held by normal sane people is transphobic to you guys, so who gives a crap anymore. At this point it's allegedly transphobic to say that males shouldn't be in women's sports, that males shouldn't be in women's prisons, that you don't think girls should have to shower or change with testicle-people, that you don't want "girldick" if you're a lesbian (or that you do want dick if you're a gay man) or that you think being a woman isn't a matter of clothes or makeup or "a feeling". If that's transphobic, then guilty as charged and I couldn't care less.

And second: I don't loathe trans people.  Not in general.  Certainly some of them I do loathe. Deranged activists like Chase Strangio and Dr Veronica Ivy, for example. Or the disgusting anime-obsessed Lolita-p0rn worshiping "transbian" incel creeps at 4chan and Reddit. Those people are just revolting.

But in general I don't hate trans people. Take "Pips" Bunce, for example. I don't hate Pips. Pips is just a gender non-conforming individual trying to find an outlet for his gender expression. I can't hate that. I'm gender non-conforming myself. I can't hate somebody for living outside the box. I completely empathize with a man who wants to be effeminate sometimes.

I don't hate Pips Bunce. What I do hate is that wokies expect us to believe that a guy who wears a dress to work twice a week is "a woman".

Pips Bunce isn't the nutcase. You guys are the nutcases.

Well, we've established already you're perfectly comfortable with the idea of working with social conservatives who hate you for the mutual cause of battling trans people so it's not surprising your response to the idea that you might have a lot in common with people who hate your guts for what you are is "so what and also it's very good."

And we've already established you have a terrible case of Internet Brain Poisoning and can no longer distinguish between what's real and what's Extremely Online and who has real power and who does not so anything you have to say on this entire subject area needs to be viewed in that lens.

Offline MH

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8658
Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1972 on: Today at 11:07:43 am »
@kimmy - Black Dog posted this

Quote
Later that month, in a long series of tweets, [Forstater] repeatedly misgendered Credit Suisse senior director Pips Bunce, who identifies as gender fluid, referring to her as "a man who likes to express himself part of the week by wearing a dress,” "a part-time cross dresser" and "a white man who likes to dress in women’s clothes.”

Maybe I was talking about this post from Black Dog which sounds to me like harassment

Quote
You posited an imaginary trans coworker who was subjected to imaginary harassment by Forstater. False. Erroneous. Fake news.