Author Topic: Cancel Culture Culture  (Read 11386 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2021, 05:18:25 pm »
Black Dog - do you think it's reasonable to communicate an overall positive view of our country to young people in the education system ?

Keep in mind that is NOT the same as papering over the past.

If so how ?

I think you can have pride in your country without a huge slant of historical nationalist propaganda (our country is always great).  Our country is a great country, and it's been not so great at times too.  It is what it is.  Your parents or spouse may have made some mistakes in their life, it doesn't mean you have to stop loving them.  Nobody's perfect.  If perfection is the standard in order to have pride for one's country then nobody would be proud of their country because every country has done bad things.

You can be in a school where kids stand for the national anthem and also learn about residential school tragedies.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2021, 05:50:56 pm »
I think an honest comparison as to how Canada is doing, looking at various metrics, should be done.  And, given we are likely 1 of the best countries in which to live, the nation would come out looking quite well. 

Like MH said, that doesn’t mean we should paint over Canada’s poor record where there is one.  But there is nothing wrong with saying how Canada s generally doing, which we all know is very good!

Some people just have a hard time looking at a glass that is half-full, I guess.

The point though is whether this is something that our public schools should be instilling in our children?

I don't think students should be warped into the same political ideology of their teacher or the political leanings of the party in power in a given province, whether right or left.  Nobody on the left wants their kids turned into Trump supporters and no parent on the right wants their kids to become a Marxists because their teacher told them it was the best ideology and Trump sucks.

There is an argument to be made of making our young students into good citizens, which simply means knowing some history (good and bad and everything in between), the basics of how our government works (civics) etc.  Playing the national anthem in the morning.  The same things an immigrant needs to know in order to pass a citizenship test.  You can let students debate, just don't have the teacher lead kids to have one opinion or another.  Teach kids about residential schools, then let them debate.

I think people in Canada know extremely little about their country, both good and bad.  It's pathetic.  Canadians know more about the US than Canada.  If you don't know anything about your country it's harder to feel connected to it and the other people that live in it.  If you feel you don't share anything with other Canadians across the country you will have less national unity.  On the other hand you don't want to be spreading false narratives and slanted propaganda to people just to build a sense of nationalism.  Just teach kids the facts of history and I think they will come to connect with their country more.  If they don't that's their choice too.  I think it's important to feel like you're a part of the national family that is Canada, and in order to do that we need to listen to the stories of everyone in this country so we understand each other more.  I like learning about the refugee stories of different immigrant groups too, it makes me understand why they came to Canada, and gets rid of the "othering" thoughts we tend to do when we don't understand somebody.  What are the stories of the Quebecois?  Different indigenous groups?  People on the east coast?  If you still don't like each other well that's fine but at least you understand them.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2021, 05:56:57 pm »
The point though is whether this is something that our public schools should be instilling in our children?

I don't think students should be warped into the same political ideology of their teacher or the political leanings of the party in power in a given province, whether right or left.  Nobody on the left wants their kids turned into Trump supporters and no parent on the right wants their kids to become a Marxists because their teacher told them it was the best ideology and Trump sucks.

There is an argument to be made of making our young students into good citizens, which simply means knowing some history (good and bad and everything in between), the basics of how our government works (civics) etc.  Playing the national anthem in the morning.  The same things an immigrant needs to know in order to pass a citizenship test.  You can let students debate, just don't have the teacher lead kids to have one opinion or another.  Teach kids about residential schools, then let them debate.

I think people in Canada know extremely little about their country, both good and bad.  It's pathetic.  Canadians know more about the US than Canada.  If you don't know anything about your country it's harder to feel connected to it and the other people that live in it.  If you feel you don't share anything with other Canadians across the country you will have less national unity.  On the other hand you don't want to be spreading false narratives and slanted propaganda to people just to build a sense of nationalism.  Just teach kids the facts of history and I think they will come to connect with their country more.  If they don't that's their choice too.  I think it's important to feel like you're a part of the national family that is Canada, and in order to do that we need to listen to the stories of everyone in this country so we understand each other more.  I like learning about the refugee stories of different immigrant groups too, it makes me understand why they came to Canada, and gets rid of the "othering" thoughts we tend to do when we don't understand somebody.  What are the stories of the Quebecois?  Different indigenous groups?  People on the east coast?  If you still don't like each other well that's fine but at least you understand them.

Agreed, for the most part.  Thinking that they’re being indoctrinated by teachers is rather naive, and seems to just buy into rightwing paranoia. 

(The dumb tag was accidental, and now I can’t remove it)
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Offline wilber

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2021, 06:02:11 pm »
I don't know, I can remember a teacher telling us fish would never be exhausted because humans would never be able to deplete the oceans.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2021, 06:15:06 pm »
I don't know, I can remember a teacher telling us fish would never be exhausted because humans would never be able to deplete the oceans.

I never said there weren’t crappy teachers.  I never said that some teachers aren’t trying to indoctrinate children. 

But there is no grand leftist conspiracy as we often hear from conservatives on the issue.
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Offline MH

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2021, 06:19:09 pm »
I think an honest comparison as to how Canada is doing, looking at various metrics, should be done.  And, given we are likely 1 of the best countries in which to live, the nation would come out looking quite well. 

Like MH said, that doesn’t mean we should paint over Canada’s poor record where there is one.  But there is nothing wrong with saying how Canada s generally doing, which we all know is very good!

Some people just have a hard time looking at a glass that is half-full, I guess.

Ok, I can work with this.  What about our values, our morality, our 'way of life' ?

Should we try to paint these as good, overall, even though many disagree ?

Offline waldo

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2021, 06:19:21 pm »
(The dumb tag was accidental, and now I can’t remove it)

whaaa! Ingrained reflexive action, hey member squiggy!
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2021, 06:21:54 pm »
Ok, I can work with this.  What about our values, our morality, our 'way of life' ?

Should we try to paint these as good, overall, even though many disagree ?

Can we use a specific example?  What you’re saying is too vague.

Offline MH

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2021, 06:31:43 pm »
Can we use a specific example?  What you’re saying is too vague.

What is vague ? Morality, values ?

Things like democracy, multiculturalism, inclusion and apologizing for past events reflect a morality, believe in right/wrong, and a sense of justice.

You can't just teach such things as though they have some Vulcan utility, right ?

Remembrance Day ?  The one with the old guy saluting in the cold ?  With a tear rolling down his cheek ?

"That man is expressing an emotional reaction to tribal programming from a young age.  Worry not, children, we will be teaching you John Stuart Mill, Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre and Derrida.  You will know the barren landscape of existence but understand how all morality is a juxtaposition of social frameworks adopted by the existing power structure to maintain the status quo.:
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Offline wilber

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2021, 06:44:07 pm »

"That man is expressing an emotional reaction to tribal programming from a young age.  Worry not, children, we will be teaching you John Stuart Mill, Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre and Derrida.  You will know the barren landscape of existence but understand how all morality is a juxtaposition of social frameworks adopted by the existing power structure to maintain the status quo.:


ZZZZZZZZZ
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2021, 07:21:55 pm »
What is vague ? Morality, values ?

Things like democracy, multiculturalism, inclusion and apologizing for past events reflect a morality, believe in right/wrong, and a sense of justice.

You can't just teach such things as though they have some Vulcan utility, right ?

Remembrance Day ?  The one with the old guy saluting in the cold ?  With a tear rolling down his cheek ?

"That man is expressing an emotional reaction to tribal programming from a young age.  Worry not, children, we will be teaching you John Stuart Mill, Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre and Derrida.  You will know the barren landscape of existence but understand how all morality is a juxtaposition of social frameworks adopted by the existing power structure to maintain the status quo.:

I asked for an example…. And I think maybe you tried to sort of be specific…. Maybe….  Then you proceeded to quote someone about philosophers….  It was very Jordan Petersen like….  But I highlighted one. 

We can teach democracy is “good” by comparing it to other systems of governance.  We can assess the arguments of those who disagree with democracy and point out why they’re wrong, or why they’re right.  Then we can compare other forms of democracy and try and point out why thy may be worse…. Or better. 


Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2021, 07:46:15 pm »
I never said there weren’t crappy teachers.  I never said that some teachers aren’t trying to indoctrinate children. 

But there is no grand leftist conspiracy as we often hear from conservatives on the issue.

I think there's a bit of a leftwing bias in education at least in Canada where I am, especially now that everything is politicized, and obviously a bias in post-secondary, depending on the teacher of course.  Some of it is more unconscious bias, some of it overt.  You're going to tend to teach values you believe in naturally.  I don't think it's some secret conspiracy it's pretty obvious when it happens.  In the US I'm sure there's a mix of right or left bias depending on the area of the country/state.  I'm opposed to both regardless of ideology.

If it's a private board or catholic board i think it becomes more ok to teach values and morality because that's what parents are signing up for.  Public is different.
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Offline MH

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2021, 07:49:57 pm »
1. I asked for an example…. And I think maybe you tried to sort of be specific…. Maybe…. 
2. Then you proceeded to quote someone about philosophers….  It was very Jordan Petersen like….  But I highlighted one. 
3. We can teach democracy is “good” by comparing it to other systems of governance.  We can assess the arguments of those who disagree with democracy and point out why they’re wrong, or why they’re right.  Then we can compare other forms of democracy and try and point out why thy may be worse…. Or better.

1. I am wondering out loud whether we have to imbue Canada as a moral place, and the examples were points upon which morality is highly discussed.
2. That was a joke... Maybe....
3. Ok, so you are saying that democracy is not "good" inherently, but that it has effects that we as Canadians prefer over the alternative.  Ok.  I don't think you are WRONG or anything, but it seems like a sort of ... Soviet ... or philosophical way to teach governance to children. 

Again, not wrong but seems out of reach.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2021, 08:10:13 pm »
What is vague ? Morality, values ?

Things like democracy, multiculturalism, inclusion and apologizing for past events reflect a morality, believe in right/wrong, and a sense of justice.

You can't just teach such things as though they have some Vulcan utility, right ?

Remembrance Day ?  The one with the old guy saluting in the cold ?  With a tear rolling down his cheek ?

"That man is expressing an emotional reaction to tribal programming from a young age.  Worry not, children, we will be teaching you John Stuart Mill, Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre and Derrida.  You will know the barren landscape of existence but understand how all morality is a juxtaposition of social frameworks adopted by the existing power structure to maintain the status quo.:

You're talking about values.  I think a government is free to spout off about whatever values they want, ingraining it into our children through public education is a different story isn't it?  Multiculturalism is a Liberal government project, it is a political ideological agenda, whether you think it good or bad is irrelevant to that fact.  Democracy is a bit different as it's built into our constitution from the start, though I'm not sure i'd support our teachers cheerleading "democracy", they're paid to discuss it and teach it, not sell it to kids.

It's fine to teach the concept of ie: multiculturalism vs melting pot etc. (I learned it in school), it's not fine to parrot partisan government lines.  If you disagree then consider if schools taught your children that a melting pot and assimilation is better than multiculturalism, and how you'd feel?  I don't think public schools should be installing values and morals, that's the job of parents.

Remembrance Day...well that's a pretty non-partisan thing.  You're basically a huge jerk not to take a minute to give thanks and respect for the people who died defending your rights.   The day doesn't celebrate specific wars, it celebrates the soldiers who sacrificed in those wars.  The soldiers who were drafted in WWI and WWII didn't even have a choice to fight.  It would be different to teach "this war was just, and this war wasn't".  That's not a public school's job.
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Offline MH

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2021, 08:19:41 pm »
You're talking about values.  I think a government is free to spout off about whatever values they want, ingraining it into our children through public education is a different story isn't it?  Multiculturalism is a Liberal government project, it is a political ideological agenda, whether you think it good or bad is irrelevant to that fact.  Democracy is a bit different as it's built into our constitution from the start, though I'm not sure i'd support our teachers cheerleading "democracy", they're paid to discuss it and teach it, not sell it to kids.

You seem to think this doesn't happen today.

Quote
It's fine to teach the concept of ie: multiculturalism vs melting pot etc. (I learned it in school), it's not fine to parrot partisan government lines.  If you disagree then consider if schools taught your children that a melting pot and assimilation is better than multiculturalism, and how you'd feel?  I don't think public schools should be installing values and morals, that's the job of parents.

You seem to think this doesn't happen today. 

And lso... why do you think *I* would feel something ?  Do you see me pushing hard on this one way or the other ?  To the point where I would feel something or maybe get upset ?

I like to discuss things and consider different angles on public morality without being invested in it, so much.

Quote

Remembrance Day...well that's a pretty non-partisan thing.  You're basically a huge jerk not to take a minute to give thanks and respect for the people who died defending your rights.   The day doesn't celebrate specific wars, it celebrates the soldiers who sacrificed in those wars.  The soldiers who were drafted in WWI and WWII didn't even have a choice to fight.  It would be different to teach "this war was just, and this war wasn't".  That's not a public school's job.

Everything is political.  There are people who think that Remembrance Day legitimizes war, yes.