Author Topic: Cancel Culture Culture  (Read 1369 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2021, 02:34:13 pm »
I'm not up to date on exactly what "critical race theory" entails, but I believe it is goes beyond saying "racism is real".  It's nothing terribly new in the US... I recall Texas (one of the largest buyers of textbooks) leaning on publishers to do whitewashing on the history of slavery and the Civil War.

Don't Canadian provinces weigh in on curriculum in the same sort of way?  There was debate in BC over whether SOGI curriculum should be in schools. If I recall Ontario had the same sort of political fighting over SOGI curriculum. Didn't the Wynne government mandate SOGI to be in classrooms, and didn't the DOFO government mandate it back out?

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2021, 03:50:05 pm »
How exactly they plan to legislate thought is something I can't imagine.  You can't write a law to exclude concepts, it's not possible.

Well they are. And the point isn't whether or not they are actually enforceable. just having them on the books is enough to chill speech.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2021, 05:05:28 pm »
This is the bill:  https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sessioninfo/2021/legislation/H0377.pdf

I don't really see anything wrong with it.  It's banning in public schools/universities any teaching that says that any race, sex, ethnicity, religion, colour, national origin is inherently inferior or superior to another, and that people belonging to those groups are responsible for past actions of members of said groups etc.

Sounds pretty progressive to me actually.

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Offline MH

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2021, 07:42:12 pm »
1. I'm not up to date on exactly what "critical race theory" entails, but I believe it is goes beyond saying "racism is real".  It's nothing terribly new in the US... I recall Texas (one of the largest buyers of textbooks) leaning on publishers to do whitewashing on the history of slavery and the Civil War.

2. Don't Canadian provinces weigh in on curriculum in the same sort of way?  There was debate in BC over whether SOGI curriculum should be in schools. If I recall Ontario had the same sort of political fighting over SOGI curriculum. Didn't the Wynne government mandate SOGI to be in classrooms, and didn't the DOFO government mandate it back out?

 -k
1. Me too.  Let's look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory an academic extension of 'civil rights' that seems to span post-modernist theory and establishes "white privilege" as a thing.  Ok.
2. I imagine it's different as the provinces establish the curriculum so they can just fight with their internal bureaucracy and ... well, likely just change it a bit.  I can't see there being too many impacts that the political arm in Ontario can have on curriculum.  I mean, the Ford government said they were going to do something but I don't think they did.  I guess that's an actual advantage of independent local school boards: the state government can posture and make noise about "can we think about the children bullshit" on political matters.


Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2021, 10:46:12 pm »
If you read the bill I don't think the bill is banning critical race theory, just certain tenets (racism, sexism etc) that they claim can be found within critical race theory.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2021, 11:48:27 pm »
This is the bill:  https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sessioninfo/2021/legislation/H0377.pdf

I don't really see anything wrong with it.  It's banning in public schools/universities any teaching that says that any race, sex, ethnicity, religion, colour, national origin is inherently inferior or superior to another, and that people belonging to those groups are responsible for past actions of members of said groups etc.

Sounds pretty progressive to me actually.

You're so, so dumb.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2021, 12:12:51 am »
You're so, so dumb.

That's not an argument.  Did you read the bill?  What's wrong with the bill?
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2021, 09:42:01 am »
That's not an argument.  Did you read the bill?  What's wrong with the bill?

You can't possibly be enough of a rube to think this is a good faith attempt to outlaw the teaching of discrimination, are you? Or to think that stripping academic institutions of funding if they teach something the state doesn't like is a "progressive" measure?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 09:44:37 am by Black Dog »

Offline MH

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2021, 09:54:24 am »
You can't possibly be enough of a rube to think this is a good faith attempt to outlaw the teaching of discrimination, are you? Or to think that stripping academic institutions of funding if they teach something the state doesn't like is a "progressive" measure?

Part of me wonders if this was introduced to fail as well as pass judicial muster.  I don't think CRT does any of this.

While I do suspect the idiots who craft these things, I also think that they play the system for maximum belicosity and will crow that the courts worked against them when somebody rules that 'white privilege' is not a condemnation of white people.

Still ... why waste our time with this bullshit.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2021, 10:39:33 am »
Part of me wonders if this was introduced to fail as well as pass judicial muster.  I don't think CRT does any of this.

While I do suspect the idiots who craft these things, I also think that they play the system for maximum belicosity and will crow that the courts worked against them when somebody rules that 'white privilege' is not a condemnation of white people.

Still ... why waste our time with this bullshit.

Again, the idea isn't to produce actionable outcomes, but to put enough fear in the hearts of administrators and academics that they will self-censor.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2021, 05:00:38 pm »
You can't possibly be enough of a rube to think this is a good faith attempt to outlaw the teaching of discrimination, are you?

This is a bill by conservative whites who 1. don't like being blamed for lots of past/present wrongs or concepts like "white privilege" and 2. probably legit think some of these concepts are socially divisive, but also 3. they don't know what to do about it, hence this bill.  The funny thing is i'm not even sure the bill has much to do with critical race theory because much of CRT doesn't have to do with being racist or prejudice etc., which is what the bill is targeting.

I'm not saying I support the bill or not, i'm just saying it's certainly not as bad as some of the media make it out to be, because it doesn't ban CRT.

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Or to think that stripping academic institutions of funding if they teach something the state doesn't like is a "progressive" measure?

If schools were teaching anti-black racism and a bill like this came out to defund programs that taught these things would you consider it progressive?  And yes this bill does ban the funding of anti-black racism (all racism, sexism, and discrimination, including islamaphobia, anti-Asian hate etc), but that isn't obviously its raison d'etre.

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Again, the idea isn't to produce actionable outcomes, but to put enough fear in the hearts of administrators and academics that they will self-censor.

This is to assume the most evil intent of this bill, without any evidence, like how you and cybercoma assumed the same intent of the Florida bill that legislated genital checks of transgender athletes.  It's possible, just like any intent is possible, but what's the evidence to assume it?  Are the state GOP in different states this evil, or are they just ignorant, or a bit dumb, or a combo of all 3?  Or do they see something in society they don't like and aren't quite sure how to solve it, and then come up with sloppy or misguided legislation to try and stop it?

The Florida bill btw doesn't require a gym teacher to check a student's genitals, it says that male athletes should compete based on their biological sex and disputes would be resolved “by requesting that the student provide a health examination and consent form or other statement signed by the student's personal health care provider which must verify the student's biological sex.”
https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2021/04/15/florida-house-passes-anti-transgender-bill-that-would-allow-for-genital-examinations-of-high-school-athletes
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2021, 10:55:16 am »
This is a bill by conservative whites who 1. don't like being blamed for lots of past/present wrongs or concepts like "white privilege" and 2. probably legit think some of these concepts are socially divisive, but also 3. they don't know what to do about it, hence this bill. The funny thing is i'm not even sure the bill has much to do with critical race theory because much of CRT doesn't have to do with being racist or prejudice etc., which is what the bill is targeting.

I'm not saying I support the bill or not, i'm just saying it's certainly not as bad as some of the media make it out to be, because it doesn't ban CRT.


Again, you're either a rube or being intentionally obtuse here. First the bill explicitly mentions CRT before segueing into the list of things its forbidding. Second it casts a broad enough brush over what constitutes discrimination that it's easy to see how it can be weaponized by bad faith actors who don't want to hear about white privilege or other CRT concepts that challenge the orthodoxy of American greatness.

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If schools were teaching anti-black racism and a bill like this came out to defund programs that taught these things would you consider it progressive?  And yes this bill does ban the funding of anti-black racism (all racism, sexism, and discrimination, including islamaphobia, anti-Asian hate etc), but that isn't obviously its raison d'etre.

I assume such things would already be forbidden under existing civil rights legislation so I have to ask what problem this bill and others like it actually solves.

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This is to assume the most evil intent of this bill, without any evidence, like how you and cybercoma assumed the same intent of the Florida bill that legislated genital checks of transgender athletes.  It's possible, just like any intent is possible, but what's the evidence to assume it?  Are the state GOP in different states this evil, or are they just ignorant, or a bit dumb, or a combo of all 3?  Or do they see something in society they don't like and aren't quite sure how to solve it, and then come up with sloppy or misguided legislation to try and stop it?

Yeah where could we get the idea that this about dictating what teachers can teach?

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Rep. Heather Scott, R-Blanchard, said teachings about critical race theory are a “poison” to schools and have been creeping into the system for years.

“The longer we wait, the more our kids are indoctrinated with this garbage,” Scott said on the House floor.

Here's what the dark money org that pushed this bill has to say.

So when lawmakers and lobbyists say the intent of this bill and others of its ilk is to prevent certain concepts from being taught in schools, why wouldn't you believe them?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 02:07:47 pm by Black Dog »

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2021, 05:43:00 pm »
First the bill explicitly mentions CRT before segueing into the list of things its forbidding.

Yes it does.  But what the bill forbids has nothing to do directly with CRT at all, which is why I don't understand people's outrage.  If the bill did ban CRT, especially in post-secondary schools, I could definitely understand the outrage.

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Second it casts a broad enough brush over what constitutes discrimination that it's easy to see how it can be weaponized by bad faith actors who don't want to hear about white privilege or other CRT concepts that challenge the orthodoxy of American greatness.

I really don't think so.  It bans discrimination and funding for the teaching of it.  Further to this point:

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I assume such things would already be forbidden under existing civil rights legislation so I have to ask what problem this bill and others like it actually solves.

Exactly.  There's not much going on with the bill.  Maybe it's meant to appease certain people clamoring over CRT.  Maybe it's written by people who legit want to ban CRT and social justice activism in schools etc but they know legally that it can't be done, so this watered down bill that criticizes CRT in the preamble but doesn't actually do anything about it is the best they can do.  The intent of the bill's creation seems a lot different than what the bill actually does, which is why i don't see much of a issue with it because all it says is "don't teach racism, sexism etc.", and everyone with a brain should agree on that.

And headlines like this are misinforming people and causing more outrage than is needed:  https://www.npr.org/2021/05/01/992761507/idaho-governor-signs-bill-to-ban-critical-race-theory-in-schools

In terms of social division maybe we should look at the media's declining journalistic standards too.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2021, 05:55:29 pm »
The American example is scarier.

I'm not so sure:  https://globalnews.ca/news/7816226/facebook-instagram-youtube-canada-crtc-canadian-content/

Thankfully the Liberals have since amended the bill after much backlash from experts and the public.

This is the government that wanted to go into every Canadians' bank account and track all their finances and purchases, and the ones that brought back the long-form census.  I support a census, but you don't need my specific name to be attached the info, which it is, even though they anonymize it when they tabulate it for researchers, but they do keep your name attached to it forever and even allow you to release that info after you're dead.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2021, 10:07:36 am »
Yes it does.  But what the bill forbids has nothing to do directly with CRT at all, which is why I don't understand people's outrage.  If the bill did ban CRT, especially in post-secondary schools, I could definitely understand the outrage.

If the bill has nothing to do with banning CRT, why does it mention CRT and why do its proponents insist it bans teaching of CRT?

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I really don't think so.  It bans discrimination and funding for the teaching of it. Further to this point:

Discrimination as defined by who?

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Exactly.  There's not much going on with the bill.  Maybe it's meant to appease certain people clamoring over CRT.  Maybe it's written by people who legit want to ban CRT and social justice activism in schools etc but they know legally that it can't be done, so this watered down bill that criticizes CRT in the preamble but doesn't actually do anything about it is the best they can do.  The intent of the bill's creation seems a lot different than what the bill actually does, which is why i don't see much of a issue with it because all it says is "don't teach racism, sexism etc.", and everyone with a brain should agree on that.

It leaves the definitions of these things wide open so that they can be easily weaponized by bad-faith actors. A teacher or prof is going to be far less likely to talk about concepts like white privilege or toxic masculinity when they know that some Young Republican narc could be waiting for the chance to rat them out for violating the law. That's the entire purpose of this bill and you'd have to have your head in the sand to think otherwise.

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And headlines like this are misinforming people and causing more outrage than is needed:  https://www.npr.org/2021/05/01/992761507/idaho-governor-signs-bill-to-ban-critical-race-theory-in-schools

In terms of social division maybe we should look at the media's declining journalistic standards too.

Or maybe most of us have been around the block enough by now to know what the right-wing stands for and how they operate and aren't gullible rubes?

I mean, look at this.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 02:19:40 pm by Black Dog »