Author Topic: Cancel Culture Culture  (Read 3805 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #285 on: November 07, 2021, 12:33:51 am »
1. You are talking about the substance of the question.  Once again, my interest is on HOW the question was covered, how we can set lines of priciple in coverage, decide what honest coverage is etc.  So your question isn't applicable to what I'm talking about.

2. You're splitting hairs.  They report things that are "of interest" but also "in the PUBLIC interest".  The press' role, and the reason they're guaranteed a protected place in our democracy, is that they are part of the central feedback in our public dialogue.  Hence, they bring things to light that are/potentially are problems and are part of the solving process.

3. You're shedding a little light on this.  It seems like her charge is that the clinic didn't do things properly.  My guess from your post is that this is about malpractice.  As such, one could argue that it's not a piece about the transitioning process being problematic any more than a piece on a bad plastic surgeon would be implicitly against plastic surgery.  Of course, the devil is in the details and at this point if someone posted a link to the CTV piece, I would ask to repost here to decide for myself.

4. You could simultaneously make transition "easier to obtain" and even ADD psychological screening.  Do you acknowledge that ?

5. Conversion therapy is generally thought to be quackery so I don't get your point.

6. This is a recent discovery I have made about public discussion: sometimes sides worry about how things are "depicted"  That's fair, but we need to separate the question of dialogue/discussion (this is the meta discussion that I engage in) and deal with those things in ways other than solely policy.

Really #6 needs its own thread, as it applies to all elements of public discussion and all politics.  We probably already have it in some other form.

But thanks, I am learning about this.  I now have a new Trans friend who kind of snuck into my social group so I'll be able to listen to him (?) with more context...


1. Your previous post seemed to indicate your opinion hinged on whether they presented the effects of detransitioning as minor and not-a-big-deal:
"Ok, well without context of what they said about the effects of de-transitioning I can't tell if this piece would be positive or not.  If they said it wasn't a big deal, and it's a minority then ok. "
It seems as though your view depends on whether the story supported a view you were predisposed to.

2. To me it seems as though news coverage of transition is almost uniformly positive. While it may well be positive for many or even most who transition, people (especially people designing policy) need to hear stories like those of Bell and Watson so that they understand that transition isn't right for every troubled child.  People have the assumption that transition is carefully managed by qualified experts, that kids go through extensive screening, that they spend a year or two living in their new gender before any medical action is taken. Hearing Bell and Watson talk about how little screening they got (I think both have mentioned 3 one-hour interviews before beginning medical treatments) should open some eyes.

3. Yes, failure to do adequate screening is at the heart of this. It was at the heart of the Keira Bell vs Tavistock legal case. It was at the heart of Tavistock whistleblowers (like Dr David Bell (no relation to Keira) and Sonia ApplebyWatch this interview with Dr Bell, who was a senior doctor at Tavistock until he resigned over his concerns that they were doing "serious harm" to children.

4. It would be possible. However, as Dr Bell points out in the interview above, the "affirmation" approach is at cross-purposes with effective screening. And, he talks about how many of the kids who come to the clinic with numerous other problems, which are viewed as being symptoms of gender identity issues, when in fact the reverse is often true. Gender dysphoria sometimes stems from sexual abuse, for example. I suspect that the saying "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" is somewhat applicable here.

5. Doctors are afraid they'll be accused of engaging in conversion therapy if they try to work on their patient's psychological issues rather than affirming their new gender immediately. "This transphobic doctor wants to talk about depression and autistic spectrum disorders and he won't give me the god damned hormones."  There is concern that attempting to address co-existing psychological issues rather than providing gender-affirming care will be viewed as conversion therapy.  There is a danger that doctors might decide "it will be easier to just write a prescription than go through that whole palava."

6.  I think I posted this graph in the Gender thread recently. This is referrals to the Tavistock gender clinic, by year.


(source)

The number of boys seeking transition has increased significantly, and the number of girls seeking transition has increased astronomically, especially in the past 5 years. If one were terribly naive, one might imagine that all of this is due to an increase in actual gender dysphoria.  If one were a bit more skeptical one might suspect that other factors are involved in this sudden and startling explosion of young people with gender identity trouble.  Maybe raising a whole generation of kids on social media and p0rn is a factor, for instance.

My concern with "how things are depicted" is that relentlessly positive coverage of transition is giving troubled young people (and their parents) an unrealistic idea of what transition might do for them. 

 -k
Masked for your safety.

Offline MH

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #286 on: November 07, 2021, 07:48:42 am »

1. Your previous post seemed to indicate your opinion hinged on whether they presented the effects of detransitioning as minor and not-a-big-deal:
It seems as though your view depends on whether the story supported a view you were predisposed to.

I have no view on how the people in the story experienced this.  I said:

"Ok, well without context of what they said about the effects of de-transitioning I can't tell if this piece would be positive or not.  If they said it wasn't a big deal, and it's a minority then ok. "

The question is about how de-transitioning is covered, ie. is it done in context, responsibly... does it need to be covered at all.

Quote
2. To me it seems as though news coverage of transition is almost uniformly positive. While it may well be positive for many or even most who transition, people (especially people designing policy) need to hear stories like those of Bell and Watson so that they understand that transition isn't right for every troubled child.  People have the assumption that transition is carefully managed by qualified experts, that kids go through extensive screening, that they spend a year or two living in their new gender before any medical action is taken. Hearing Bell and Watson talk about how little screening they got (I think both have mentioned 3 one-hour interviews before beginning medical treatments) should open some eyes.

Ok.

Quote


4. It would be possible. However, as Dr Bell points out in the interview above, the "affirmation" approach is at cross-purposes with effective screening. And, he talks about how many of the kids who come to the clinic with numerous other problems, which are viewed as being symptoms of gender identity issues, when in fact the reverse is often true. Gender dysphoria sometimes stems from sexual abuse, for example. I suspect that the saying "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" is somewhat applicable here.

The best piece I heard on this topic was the Jesse Singal interview, wherein a therapist explained it. 

I think it can be covered in a way to shed light on the process without spreading the moral panic that woke Drs are trying to harm your children.

Quote
5. Doctors are afraid they'll be accused of engaging in conversion therapy if they try to work on their patient's psychological issues rather than affirming their new gender immediately. "This transphobic doctor wants to talk about depression and autistic spectrum disorders and he won't give me the god damned hormones."  There is concern that attempting to address co-existing psychological issues rather than providing gender-affirming care will be viewed as conversion therapy.  There is a danger that doctors might decide "it will be easier to just write a prescription than go through that whole palava."

Which Doctors ?  Where'd you get this ?

Quote
6.  I think I posted this graph in the Gender thread recently. This is referrals to the Tavistock gender clinic, by year.


(source)

The number of boys seeking transition has increased significantly, and the number of girls seeking transition has increased astronomically, especially in the past 5 years. If one were terribly naive, one might imagine that all of this is due to an increase in actual gender dysphoria.  If one were a bit more skeptical one might suspect that other factors are involved in this sudden and startling explosion of young people with gender identity trouble.  Maybe raising a whole generation of kids on social media and p0rn is a factor, for instance.

My concern with "how things are depicted" is that relentlessly positive coverage of transition is giving troubled young people (and their parents) an unrealistic idea of what transition might do for them. 

 -k

I don't buy that 'positive coverage of transition' is going to make a cis person want to change.  Of course the number of referrals are going to jump as this issue is discussed in the public forum.  That's why you don't draw the graph back to 1950.

This just needs objective, classic journalism.  If they cover the process, and do so fairly without moral panic I'm ok with it.

I think it's just time for me to watch the CTV piece....

Offline MH

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #287 on: November 07, 2021, 08:34:54 am »
So the clips posted were very brief.

What I got:

1) Person benefitted from transitioning
2) Person who had negative impacts, and blames the clinic for not doing 'proper screening'

Seems like fair coverage to me, if they are doing an exposť on the clinic.  Are they ?  It's in Britain so... These shows do focus on medical malpractice, from what I remember... bad doctors etc.  If it's just a piece explaining gender transition to Bob and Lois of Oshawa... then I would still wonder how they framed the negative experience. 

All in all, I don't think the piece is grossly irresponsible or grossly 'woke' or whatever.  Looks to be about par for Canadian journalism, but feel free to argue that it's terrible or perfect I guess.  To me, it follows the same format as a piece on video games or any novelty, ensuring that they address the 'concerns' ...

Offline The Cynic

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #288 on: November 07, 2021, 09:37:04 am »
I don't buy that 'positive coverage of transition' is going to make a cis person want to change.  Of course the number of referrals are going to jump as this issue is discussed in the public forum.

Youth suicides jump whenever they're discussed. People with emotional and mental issues seize on these sorts of things all the time. The younger people I know who now claim to be transgender had serious emotional and behavioural issues prior to their sudden discovery of being the wrong gender, and still have them. Only now they have an excuse to get more sympathy and a kind of shield to hold up against criticism. That's a seriously attractive thing to fragile, confused and otherwise mentally ill people.

Offline MH

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #289 on: November 07, 2021, 12:34:52 pm »
1. Youth suicides jump whenever they're discussed.
2. People with emotional and mental issues seize on these sorts of things all the time. The younger people I know who now claim to be transgender had serious emotional and behavioural issues prior to their sudden discovery of being the wrong gender, and still have them.
Only now they have an excuse to get more sympathy and a kind of shield to hold up against criticism. That's a seriously attractive thing to fragile, confused and otherwise mentally ill people.
1. Cite please.
2. I don't think I would trust your diagnosis unless you explain your qualifications here.