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Author Topic: Automation Culture  (Read 10077 times)

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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2017, 09:18:14 pm »
Quote from: wilber on July 06, 2017, 06:44:06 pm
Oh I agree with the first two. I don't know how the third will happen if you take away the incentive to take risk and create wealth. The idea of the end of labour or 90% of people without it is definitely new.
Ok - I see.  I see your point #3 and I agree with 'the end of labour' being something new also.
 
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These are real questions, I'm not trying to be difficult.

Ok.  In fact nobody has answers... but we can ask good questions.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2017, 02:16:53 pm »
Quote from: dia on June 29, 2017, 10:35:31 pm
I think there is an art to landscaping that cannot be reproduced by AI. Same with any kind of husbandry.

Most of the landscaping jobs are physical labour. Yes, there's a design aspect, but you can pull designs from a book, and then computer operated diggers and planters can pull up sod, and lay stones and seeds from a program in any order the design calls for. As for cutting grass and trimming hedges - well, clearly we won't need people for that.  And there are already a lot of big, industrial farms which are heavily automated.

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People do crave and need connection with others.  It may be true that robots could do all of the things people currently do, but it may be equally true that most people will gravitate to those shops that have real people in them over those that do not.

That's what they used to say when the Wal-Marts showed up, but they quickly threw most of the friendly service mom and pop stores out of business. What people wanted was more selection at rock bottom prices. Nobody cares about the waiter or waitress at a restaurant - unless it's Hooters. They care that the food comes fast and is hot and tasty. If it comes on a tray from a slot in the wall they'll be quite content so long as it's cheaper.
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"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2017, 02:18:55 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on July 06, 2017, 10:10:19 am
This is exactly right. Capitalism is unsustainable without some sort of socialist safety net acting as a pressure-release valve. If people cannot support themselves any longer because the capitalists forget that fundamentally people need jobs to survive, then there will be a violent clash between the haves and have nots.

This is only true in democracies. Otherwise, the elites have troops (who of course, are well fed) to crush the starving. You don't see any sign of revolt in North Korea, do you? And you won't.
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"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2017, 02:22:05 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on July 06, 2017, 10:04:27 am
Amazing what happens when students are saddled with crippling debt that takes years to pay off after they leave college/university. Imagine a world where people finished school and were able to buy a car, a home, and start a family. All of that spending, lubricating the economy. But nope. They move back home with their parents or they move in with friends, splitting the bills trying to stay afloat and trying to pay back loans to the government. Then people wonder why the economy is stagnant.

Why do universities cost so much? Why has inflation raised the price of post-secondary educations far above that of inflation? It seems to me the largest cost for universities are the salaries, all of them extremely generous, of their staff, none of whom, especially the professors, seem to be terribly overworked. Why do we pay the people who run universities more than we pay the guy who runs the country?
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"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2017, 02:26:42 pm »
Quote from: BC_cheque on July 05, 2017, 11:07:15 am
I don't know about Elon Musk, but I know Bill Gates believes robots need to be taxed in order to pay for the inevitable basic income.  But who is going to pay the robot's tax?  The company for which it produces, of course. 

Except every western government seems to be in a race to see who can tax corporations the least. Apple now has a quarter of a TRILLION dollars in cash which it doesn't have to pay taxes on because it's held overseas. Yet if individuals keep their money overseas and the government finds out they get charged with tax dodging. Almost every dollar I get comes from abroad. Do you think I can have it directed to a bank account in Bermuda and not pay any tax on it? Not legally! Why is Apple or Google any different? Granted, they only have about $50 billion, poor wretches.

You know, there was a time when individuals didn't pay any tax. Only businesses did. How did we let this be reversed? Simple, look at the money directed by corporations in the pockets of politicians.
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"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2017, 02:30:58 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on July 06, 2017, 10:08:23 am
Hell, the entire point of a capitalist economy is to rob workers of their "surplus" production to pay the bourgeoisie for owning the means of production. The workers are given only what they need to supply, not what their labour produces in economic value to the employer. So workers don't even get the earnings they produce now, let alone when a robot takes over their job.

Seriously, can you tell me any system or nation in history where the non-elites were as rich and comfortable and owned anything remotely like the standard of living capitalism has provided for us? It certainly didn't happen and won't happen under communism. And too much Socialism robs people of the initiative and motivation to excel, which impoverishes everyone.

Well, except the elites. They always seem to fare well.
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"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2017, 02:31:47 pm »
Quote from: MH on July 06, 2017, 10:40:05 am
Or possibly just a bloodless nationalization of assets.

Which gives us general impoverishment and bread lines. We've seen this movie before.
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"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2017, 04:59:41 pm »
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I think there is an art to landscaping that cannot be reproduced by AI. Same with any kind of husbandry.

If AI becomes true AI, why couldn't it come up with beautiful landscaping ideas?

AI doesn't refer to mindless robots doing menial labour....   it is true artificial human intelligence.  AI might be able to come up with an idea of what's beautiful.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #98 on: July 09, 2017, 12:03:59 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on July 08, 2017, 02:22:05 pm
Why do universities cost so much? Why has inflation raised the price of post-secondary educations far above that of inflation? It seems to me the largest cost for universities are the salaries, all of them extremely generous, of their staff, none of whom, especially the professors, seem to be terribly overworked. Why do we pay the people who run universities more than we pay the guy who runs the country?

I'm skeptical that salaries are the largest costs at universities. They have huge capital expenditures.  I'm astounded every time I return to Edmonton by how much the University of Alberta continues to grow. Here at home Kim City College has transitioned to become UBC Kim City, adding degree programs, new buildings, new facilities, and new housing to provide education options for students outside the Lower Mainland.  As well, professors aren't just interchangeable parts. They're researchers and experts in their field.  They command high salaries because their skill-sets are scarce and sought after... just like any other high-salaried individual be it a CEO or a star hockey player.

But if you examine the history of tuition fees in Canada, I think you'll find all that is beside the point.

This article:
http://higheredstrategy.com/are-teaching-costs-increasing-at-canadian-universities/
makes the case that core teaching costs aren't actually rising at all.

In this graph the orange line is core teaching costs and the blue is tuition:


You can see that the orange line is pretty flat while the blue line takes off like a rocket in the early 1990s. What happened in the early 1990s?  Well, the all-comsuming drive to balance the budget.  The author argues "the 1990s were a time of disinvestment, so in part higher tuition fees were replacing government spending"  but also that "between 1990 and 2005 or so there were some fairly major changes to the way universities spend their money. A lot more money went into IT, student services, scholarships (and, yes, administration), meaning that core instructional costs shrunk as a percentage of total expenditures."



 -k
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2017, 12:37:06 pm »
That's exactly right. While SirJohn criticizes professor's salaries, likely because he thinks they are glorified high school teachers when they're not, it's been the explosion in administrative costs. Universities have entire boards filled with VPs, all with their own staff, drawing insane salaries. They keep adding buildings that have people's names on them but don't serve to advance research very well. Full tenured professors are disappearing for part-time teaching only positions, which harms a university's program consistency and is a disincentive for attracting graduate students. Meanwhile, the cost to go there continues to far outpace both inflation and wages.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2017, 01:50:13 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on July 08, 2017, 02:16:53 pm
Nobody cares about the waiter or waitress at a restaurant - unless it's Hooters. They care that the food comes fast and is hot and tasty. If it comes on a tray from a slot in the wall they'll be quite content so long as it's cheaper.

I agreed with your point about gardening, but not so much about the restaurant part.  In my city, 20% tipping is expected and nicer restaurants are exploding all over the place so you can make a good wage if you are a personable restaurant server.

Walmart made Sears disappear, but it didn't kill LuLu Lemon.  There's a low and high market but no middle. 

I have no data here, just a hunch and some ideas.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2017, 01:52:16 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on July 08, 2017, 02:18:55 pm
This is only true in democracies. Otherwise, the elites have troops (who of course, are well fed) to crush the starving. You don't see any sign of revolt in North Korea, do you? And you won't.

There are other examples in between, though.  Brazil ?  China ?  Russia ?  Vietnam ?  Venezuela ?

I think democracies are a key signifier of a workable and fair society but not the only one, is my point.

Anyway, it's a side point...
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #102 on: July 09, 2017, 01:55:41 pm »
It seems to me that SJ's point was:
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It seems to me the largest cost for universities are the salaries, all of them extremely generous, of their staff, none of whom, especially the professors, seem to be terribly overworked.

Which isn't that controversial - salary costs are usually a large percentage of costs for services right ?

The question is why the costs have gone up, and that seems to me divestment according to the links above.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2017, 08:16:40 am »
Quote from: MH on July 09, 2017, 01:55:41 pm
It seems to me that SJ's point was:
Which isn't that controversial - salary costs are usually a large percentage of costs for services right ?

The question is why the costs have gone up, and that seems to me divestment according to the links above.
Also the fact that professors aren't retiring. There's profs at institutions who've been there for decades. Some even work into their 70s and 80s. When a large part of your labour pool has been working there for decades, they're going to make a lot more than new people. And universities have stopped hiring new people, instead only bringing on adjuncts/part-time instructors. If any of you think the problem is TOO much money being spent on professors, you've not seen the system crumbling from the inside. They're spending more and more money on administration salaries and hardly anything on attracting nor retaining young talent. You can't build a long-term program of research or corner the market on an area of influence when your department is replacing retiring professors with part-time instructors. The students also suffer because they're not getting instructors who do active research and keep up to date on their fields. Sure, some part-time profs do as part of the rat race, but they're not at all required to do any of the research or academic service aspects of the job. They just teach. That's it. If education in universities is suffering, this is the primary reason. Too many admins and not enough front line labour doing the research and disseminating knowledge.
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Online wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #104 on: July 13, 2017, 09:38:32 am »
Mandatory retirement is a thing of the past. You can no longer discriminate because of age.
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