Author Topic: Automation Culture  (Read 1324 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2017, 02:13:04 pm »
You're questioning the basic nature of the economy, here.  Think of it of people who need things done, and people who do things.


Offline wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2017, 03:14:08 pm »
You're questioning the basic nature of the economy, here.  Think of it of people who need things done, and people who do things.

Absolutely I'm questioning the nature of the economy we are moving toward. We bloody well better.  So where does the money come from if all we end up doing is bartering services that technology can't yet provide? Our currency will be worth nothing anyway if we don't have goods and services we can sell to people in other countries.
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Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2017, 03:48:48 pm »
Absolutely I'm questioning the nature of the economy we are moving toward. We bloody well better.  So where does the money come from if all we end up doing is bartering services that technology can't yet provide?

No - you're questioning all economies.  The questions you ask could have been asked at the start of the last century. Again, think of the economy as things to be done and people to do it.  As such, it really will never end.

Offline wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2017, 07:02:00 pm »
No - you're questioning all economies.  The questions you ask could have been asked at the start of the last century. Again, think of the economy as things to be done and people to do it.  As such, it really will never end.

We are increasingly looking at an economy that requires less people to do it,/ in case you haven't noticed. So yes, I do question that. We can't all work in an Amazon warehouse shipping things to each other, because that will become more automated as well.

I ask questions, you respond with faith. I don't know why because change isn't automatically positive.
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Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2017, 07:17:31 pm »
We are increasingly looking at an economy that requires less people to do it,/ in case you haven't noticed. So yes, I do question that. We can't all work in an Amazon warehouse shipping things to each other, because that will become more automated as well.

That's not new.

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I ask questions, you respond with faith. I don't know why because change isn't automatically positive.
Of course it's not, but we know things that we didn't know before, such as:
1) Less human labour is a permanent trend
2) If we don't do something collectively, there will be huge risks
3) The economic gains from these changes are real, but not naturally spread to all of society

I did answer your questions, but I can no more be expected to answer specifics than the displaced blacksmith could have predicted the Interstate, McDonalds, or the Drive In movie. 

Offline wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2017, 07:26:32 pm »
The thing is, less human labour is a good thing in a capitalist society, except for the people with no jobs. I don't know the answers either but the competition for existing jobs has never been greater in spite of a better educated population. I don't see that trend reversing or even slowing down with our present system, so what next?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 08:07:19 pm by wilber »
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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2017, 09:44:57 pm »
We live in a society where the emphasis is cheaper goods and services by replacing people with technology. Who is going to employ those RMT's, life coaches and dog walkers?. We can't support ourselves by walking each others dogs.

There is an assumption here that we must do some kind of paid work to survive, but why?   Simplistically, if we had one robot for each worker, and the 'earnings' from that robot went to an individual, that individual could do whatever he/she wanted.   Perhaps if automation provided the necessities of life for everyone, and people really were free to do what they loved, our society would be more productive and innovative and ultimately richer.



Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2017, 10:08:22 pm »
As the main beneficiary of automation, businesses will have to start sharing some of the higher profit in the form of higher taxes.  Then we can have basic income for the majority of the people who will barely feed themselves while wealth goes into the hands of fewer and fewer people.

Then people will revolt against robots and it'll be science fiction coming to life. 

That's my take, I don't see any other way out.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 10:11:14 pm by BC_cheque »

Offline the_squid

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2017, 10:59:58 pm »
There is an assumption here that we must do some kind of paid work to survive, but why?   Simplistically, if we had one robot for each worker, and the 'earnings' from that robot went to an individual, that individual could do whatever he/she wanted.   Perhaps if automation provided the necessities of life for everyone, and people really were free to do what they loved, our society would be more productive and innovative and ultimately richer.

So the robots are free?   

I think they'd be rather expensive, no?

Offline wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2017, 11:17:18 pm »
There is an assumption here that we must do some kind of paid work to survive, but why?   Simplistically, if we had one robot for each worker, and the 'earnings' from that robot went to an individual, that individual could do whatever he/she wanted.   Perhaps if automation provided the necessities of life for everyone, and people really were free to do what they loved, our society would be more productive and innovative and ultimately richer.

Who's going to buy your robot for you?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline kimmy

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2017, 11:52:04 pm »
The profits accrued from the robots (and other forms of automation) will be reaped by those who own the machines. It has always been that way, going back to the cotton gin and automatic looms and other early machines that displaced human workers.

The people who own the machines don't want to share. They're not going to give people a cut of the profits generated by their machines. It hasn't happened in 300 years, it's not going to happen now.  Not unless something radical happens.

Efforts to make them share-- through taxation or other form of redistribution-- just result in accounting shenanigans and companies that have a "head office" in Bermuda... a head office consisting of one mail-box and one employee who checks the mail once a day and spends the rest of his day on the beach drinking rum out of a coconut. The only people who get a share are the shareholders, and you can't become a shareholder unless you have the money to buy in.

But obviously our consumption-based economy can't go on without consumers.  And consumers without money aren't consumers.  And that's where the whole thing is going to fall down.

 -k
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Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2017, 05:57:40 am »
The thing is, less human labour is a good thing in a capitalist society, except for the people with no jobs. I don't know the answers either but the competition for existing jobs has never been greater in spite of a better educated population. I don't see that trend reversing or even slowing down with our present system, so what next?

The answer is redistribution.  If the system doesn't find a way to do it without pain, then we will relive history. 

Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2017, 05:58:47 am »
What Kimmy said.

guest4

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2017, 09:14:02 am »
https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/our-world-3-0-can-we-evolve-beyond-money

A money-less society, where automation takes care of basic needs and people are truly free to follow their passion is an idea of Jacque Fresco.

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Reasoning that money (and, by association, politics and power) is the supreme corrupting influence, Fresco has set about designing a blueprint for a society free of money. Naturally talk of a society without money makes no sense in a society based on money, so one needs to suspend the obvious criticisms and ask, does it sound like a better system than we have now, and if so, how do we get there?

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Unlike the discredited industrial/agrarian socialism of Stalin and Mao, in Fresco’s ideal world, machines would free humans from the drudgery of much of the labour that inhibited workers from enjoying life and education. Such a system free of political intervention, he argues, would necessarily eliminate war, hunger, poverty and even crime and in the process create better educated people whose talents can be entirely focused on human and natural welfare. The vision espoused by the Venus Project may seem outlandish, utopian and maybe even scary. Drawing on his 94 years of experience, Fresco himself is keenly aware that utopia is unachievable. Rather, he believes that (1) it is a better system than we currently have at present; and (2) the relentless pace of innovation makes such a vision possible, if we choose it.

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Finally, consider whether our monetary system would make sense if we lived in Fresco’s world. Put another way, if we have access to all we need, would we need money?



Offline wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2017, 09:31:24 am »
The answer is redistribution.  If the system doesn't find a way to do it without pain, then we will relive history.

How do you redistribute? Communism tried that and it didn't work very well.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC