Author Topic: Automation Culture  (Read 1324 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2017, 10:18:50 pm »
Hyperbole.  Starvation is not a problem.

Yes, hyperbole.  But we are going to have more and more broke people who can't afford to buy anything beyond the basic necessities because there is no work they can do that provides income.

The thin edge of the wedge is already here, as illustrated by the increasingly frequent business trend articles lamenting that millennials are wrecking our consumer-driven economy because we don't buy houses, cars, golf club memberships, wine, and so-on.

Economic disruption is a problem and my easy answer is to use the economic savings to fund the transition.

Those aren't "economic savings". Those are increased profit margins, and they go into the pockets of the shareholders who own the businesses that own the machines that produce the goods and services.

Those people aren't going to fund jack shit out of the goodness of their hearts.

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Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2017, 10:29:24 pm »
Yes, hyperbole.  But we are going to have more and more broke people who can't afford to buy anything beyond the basic necessities because there is no work they can do that provides income.

Yes, and that may not be such a bad thing.  People want less now: less stuff, less status.  Don't have a family and you're fine.  When they bring in minimum basic income of $20K that will seal it.

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The thin edge of the wedge is already here, as illustrated by the increasingly frequent business trend articles lamenting that millennials are wrecking our consumer-driven economy because we don't buy houses, cars, golf club memberships, wine, and so-on.

Those aren't "economic savings". Those are increased profit margins, and they go into the pockets of the shareholders who own the businesses that own the machines that produce the goods and services.

Those people aren't going to fund jack shit out of the goodness of their hearts.
 

I saw something that pointed out the "millennials are wrecking THIS" articles usually are talking about shitty things, like Appleby's.

Millennials are great in my books.

Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2017, 10:30:32 pm »
http://nypost.com/2017/06/10/we-should-thank-millennials-for-ruining-these-terrible-products/
Millennials are, according to Business Insider earlier this month, “Killing Chains Like Buffalo Wild Wings and Applebee’s.” This isn’t the first thing that we’ve killed and/or destroyed by stubbornly refusing to spend money on it. Last year millennials got accused of wiping out everything from mass-market beers like Budweiser and Coors to the diamond industry to bar soap.

And, on behalf of all millennials, I can only say: You’re welcome.

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2017, 10:35:31 pm »
Most of those who will be most threatened are not white-collar. The lower skilled will be pushed into what one writer called "The useless class", people whose labour is of zero value since machines can do it better and cheaper. That includes truck and taxi drivers, messengers, bus drivers, heavy equipment operators, landscapers, and most restaurant and retail clerks. When you go into a Tim Hortons or McDonalds in a decade or two there won't be any employees greeting you. You'll push a button and get what you want out of a sliding door. Most likely it will be robots inside making it too. Well, at least we won't have to worry about the bitter kid with acne spitting in our burgers. There's no reason places like liquor stores couldn't operate in the same way.

I think there is an art to landscaping that cannot be reproduced by AI.   Same with any kind of husbandry. 

People do crave and need connection with others.  It may be true that robots could do all of the things people currently do, but it may be equally true that most people will gravitate to those shops that have real people in them over those that do not.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2017, 01:09:55 pm »
Yes, and that may not be such a bad thing.  People want less now: less stuff, less status.  Don't have a family and you're fine. 

But our national policy seems to be based on the idea that we need people to have families. We need immigration because Canadians don't have enough children. We need young people working and paying taxes and keep the pension fund afloat because older people are retiring and ceasing to pay taxes and withdrawing from the pension fund. 

The idea that maybe we don't need growth would be a pretty radical paradigm shift that would be at odds with existing policies.


When they bring in minimum basic income of $20K that will seal it.

I think that some places are now doing small-scale trials of guaranteed basic income.

At first thought it seems fairly ludicrous that the government could just give away money.  But we already give away lots of money.  Old age security and welfare could perhaps be completely eliminated in favor of a basic guaranteed income.  The "basic personal exemption" would probably become irrelevant as well. I would think that large pieces of bureaucracy associated with welfare and old age security could likewise be eliminated, resulting in substantial savings to the public purse.

Maybe it's not as unfeasible as it sounds at first.

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Offline the_squid

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2017, 01:34:01 pm »
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The idea that maybe we don't need growth would be a pretty radical paradigm shift that would be at odds with existing policies.

Not just policies of this country, but with the entire economic system around the world.

Offline wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2017, 10:18:09 pm »
Hyperbole.  Starvation is not a problem.  Economic disruption is a problem and my easy answer is to use the economic savings to fund the transition.

Brilliantly stupid idea, that is.

Fund the transition to what?
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Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2017, 07:41:39 am »
To the next economy.

Offline wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2017, 09:58:54 am »
To the next economy.

What economy? It's a serious question. How will people afford all the goods and services  they are no longer required to produce?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2017, 11:17:43 am »
People will find things to do that are valuable to others

Offline wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2017, 11:20:17 am »
People will find things to do that are valuable to others

Faith then, in a world that puts a premium on making humans redundant except as customers and consumers.
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Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2017, 12:15:58 pm »
Faith then, in a world that puts a premium on making humans redundant except as customers and consumers.

?  I don't understand what you're saying here.  You seem to be implying that it's unwise to have faith in such a world, but YOU asked the question:

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How will people afford all the goods and services  they are no longer required to produce?

Are you interested in people 'affording goods and services' and 'producing them' ?  You're asking about the nature of wholesale economic change itself, which I think means we have to find a way to find new services/products for people to consume.

This is a little difficult to imagine, but if you went back 50 years could you imagine there would be so many RMTs, life coaches, dog walkers and so on ? 

We should be able to approach the next change a little more wisely than, say, the Europeans did during the industrial revolution.  *Should*

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2017, 12:29:27 pm »
People have been worried about loss of jobs from automation & technology in general since the industrial revolution.  I'm more worried about the inevitable time in the future when machines can design and build themselves.

But we'll always have the creative jobs they say.  Imagine computer algorithms smart enough to ie: analyze every piece of recorded music, find the patterns different types of people find pleasing, and is able to create incredible new music without our input.

We'll always have the caring professions they say.  I hated half my teachers.  Imagine life-like humanoid robots that pass the Turing Test that can serve teachers and are kinder and more effective teachers than most humans are?  Same with nurses, doctors etc.  Doctors that never make mistakes.
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Offline MH

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2017, 12:37:59 pm »
Why worry about what you can't conceive of ?

Could the subjects of the Industrial Revolution visualized minimum wages, social welfare, emancipation for women, LGBT groups, legislated end to racial prejudice ?

The elimination of human labour is a long way off and if I'm alive i will enjoy all of us picnicking, playing acoustic guitar and reading poetry in the park.

Offline wilber

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Re: Automation Culture
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2017, 01:48:11 pm »
?  I don't understand what you're saying here.  You seem to be implying that it's unwise to have faith in such a world, but YOU asked the question:

Are you interested in people 'affording goods and services' and 'producing them' ?  You're asking about the nature of wholesale economic change itself, which I think means we have to find a way to find new services/products for people to consume.

This is a little difficult to imagine, but if you went back 50 years could you imagine there would be so many RMTs, life coaches, dog walkers and so on ? 

We should be able to approach the next change a little more wisely than, say, the Europeans did during the industrial revolution.  *Should*

We live in a society where the emphasis is cheaper goods and services by replacing people with technology. Who is going to employ those RMT's, life coaches and dog walkers?. We can't support ourselves by walking each others dogs.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC