Author Topic: Atlas flight 3591 crash  (Read 602 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2019, 12:26:30 pm »
Well the electromagnetic systems have been problematic and it's not like they don't have a supply of steam as it is used to power the ship. If he knew the Brits first used steam turbines to power ships and also invented the steam catapult, he would probably be against those as well.

If I were an American I would strongly suggest that the taxpayer should open their wallets and provide the current potus with a luxuriously appointed new airplane since that 747 is getting a bit old. You can guess which type I would suggest, and just with one proviso that he does not fly it over Canada.

Offline wilber

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2019, 12:27:03 pm »
I have a 737 for sale-CHEAP! Just bring a towbar with you to get it home.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/garneau-boeing-ethiopia-crash-1.5054234

Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8, bans jet from airspace following fatal crash
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I still think Garneau is bending to public and political pressure. From what I have read the MCAS can be deactivated by simply using the manual electric trim switches or cutting off the power to the actuators. The problem is the crew can end up fighting the system by trying to override it with elevators which is the purpose of the system in the first place. The software fix will probably just limit the  MCAS authority over the stabilizer so it can't trim to a position where it cannot be overridden by elevators. Then the crew will be able to stall the aircraft just like every other 737 and the system can just say, I tried but you ignored me.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2019, 12:36:30 pm »
I still think Garneau is bending to public and political pressure. From what I have read the MCAS can be deactivated by simply using the manual electric trim switches or cutting off the power to the actuators. The problem is the crew can end up fighting the system by trying to override it with elevators which is the purpose of the system in the first place. The software fix will probably just limit the  MCAS authority over the stabilizer so it can't trim to a position where it cannot be overridden by elevators. Then the crew will be able to stall the aircraft just like every other 737 and the system can just say, I tried but you ignored me.

From what I've heard so far it seems they threw this MCAS system in but didn't provide proper training on how to over ride it if need be. Where there seems to be an inconsistency is when Boeing says there is nothing wrong with this system while they hasten to provide an STC for it. 

Offline Boges

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2019, 12:36:58 pm »
I don't think Canada or the US want to do this. But many other countries are banning their airspaces of these planes. So their hands are kind of forced.

It's really a testament to how safe flying is that two crashes in half a year have led to an absolute panic in the industry.

That being said, if I was on one of these planes, I'd definitely be a little concerned at take-off. Just human nature.

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2019, 12:46:03 pm »
Well now this gets interesting, I don't have a site yet but apparently there are some US pilots who have spoken out that they have had similar control problems with the Max 8 that were reported by pilots on both those planes before they crashed, and that Boeing wanted to provide a software update to correct control problems but that process was delayed due to the government shutdown that little **** ant "bonespurs" took the country on.

Offline Boges

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2019, 12:47:20 pm »
Well now this gets interesting, I don't have a site yet but apparently there are some US pilots who have spoken out that they have had similar control problems with the Max 8 that were reported by pilots on both those planes before they crashed, and that Boeing wanted to provide a software update to correct control problems but that process was delayed due to the government shutdown that little **** ant "bonespurs" took the country on.

But the Wall tho.

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2019, 12:56:36 pm »
But the Wall tho.

Aha! perhaps the Max8 is a government ploy to make sure you can't fly over the wall once it's built. Donald thinks of everything.

Offline wilber

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2019, 01:02:02 pm »
From what I've heard so far it seems they threw this MCAS system in but didn't provide proper training on how to over ride it if need be. Where there seems to be an inconsistency is when Boeing says there is nothing wrong with this system while they hasten to provide an STC for it.

They will have to now just to placate the public and politicians. Mob rule has carried the day. We have seen other aircraft where the fix to a problem has been to people proof the machine because there was nothing inherently wrong with the machine in the first place. The MCAS system was installed to people proof the MAX by preventing stalls but it seems to have worked the other way with some crews because they weren't able to recognize the real problem. There is word going around that a software patch had been issued but was awaiting FAA approval during the government shutdown. I would take that with a grain of salt but I guess it might be possible.

I think the basic problem is training or the lack of it on this system. Remember the Air France crew that flew the wood chopper A320 full of passengers during an airshow because they didn't understand how it going into land mode affected engine response on this new fly by wire aircraft. The number of 727's that landed short of the runway because former piston engine pilots weren't used to the sink rate of this aircraft on approach and the spool up time jet engines require before they start making real power. Nothing wrong with either aircraft design, just the understanding of the crews that operated early versions.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2019, 01:29:17 pm »
They will have to now just to placate the public and politicians. Mob rule has carried the day. We have seen other aircraft where the fix to a problem has been to people proof the machine because there was nothing inherently wrong with the machine in the first place. The MCAS system was installed to people proof the MAX by preventing stalls but it seems to have worked the other way with some crews because they weren't able to recognize the real problem. There is word going around that a software patch had been issued but was awaiting FAA approval during the government shutdown. I would take that with a grain of salt but I guess it might be possible.

I think the basic problem is training or the lack of it on this system. Remember the Air France crew that flew the wood chopper A320 full of passengers during an airshow because they didn't understand how it going into land mode affected engine response on this new fly by wire aircraft. The number of 727's that landed short of the runway because former piston engine pilots weren't used to the sink rate of this aircraft on approach and the spool up time jet engines require before they start making real power. Nothing wrong with either aircraft design, just the understanding of the crews that operated early versions.

You would think in this day and age and the accuracy of flight sims. available/operated by FSI etal, a pilot should enter a cockpit fully versed on all systems in the plane they are about to fly.

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2019, 01:32:10 pm »
Well there we go, Trump just announces the Max8 is grounded in the US now.

Offline wilber

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2019, 01:56:52 pm »
You would think in this day and age and the accuracy of flight sims. available/operated by FSI etal, a pilot should enter a cockpit fully versed on all systems in the plane they are about to fly.

The MCAS certainly seems to have been overlooked. The MCAS is intended to make the MAX fly like previous 737's but something was missed. Are there any dedicated MAX simulators or are operators just using previous generation simulators running MAX software? The same simulators are often used for different types that have the same cockpit layouts just by changing the program. 767/757, DC10/DC10-30. B747-100-200-300, different fly by wire Airbuses that have the same cockpit layouts etc.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2019, 02:04:21 pm »
The MCAS certainly seems to have been overlooked. The MCAS is intended to make the MAX fly like previous 737's but something was missed. Are there any dedicated MAX simulators or are operators just using previous generation simulators running MAX software? The same simulators are often used for different types that have the same cockpit layouts just by changing the program. 767/757, DC10/DC10-30. B747-100-200-300, different fly by wire Airbuses that have the same cockpit layouts etc.

I await with bated breath as to what comes from the black boxes from the ET flight. Especially the CVR to see if there was confusion as to control inputs by the pilots vs aircraft reactions. I'm willing to bet it comes down to a lack of training.

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2019, 09:25:21 pm »
The French have apparently successfully downloaded the data from the black boxes from the ET crash and the FDR apparently shows that both that 737 Max 8 and the Lion Air one experienced very similar malfunctions. Boeing is gonna take a **** kicking on this I suspect.


Offline ?Impact

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2019, 02:40:15 pm »
Good analysis:

Zerohedge? Seriously?