Author Topic: Atlas flight 3591 crash  (Read 364 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2019, 03:45:46 pm »
Looking forward to watching CNN's upcoming show as to what may have happened to MH 370. All the searching so far still isn't conclusive as to just what occured.

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2019, 10:07:00 pm »
Speaking of airplane crashes, just finished watching the special CNN aired on MH 370 flight. Not sure why they bothered because I didn't learn anything I didn't already know.

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2019, 02:33:57 pm »
Now another plane crash, this time Ethiopia Airlines which killed all on board (157) including 18 Canadians. A brand new 737, same model which crashed in Indonesia back in October also killing all (189) on board. What is interesting, after you get by the tragedy is that both crashed shortly after take off and basically nose dived hitting at high speed and leaving a relatively small debris trail of bits and pieces you could hardly identify as airplane parts. Hopefully they can get the black boxes from this recent one since it crashed on land, and see if there is some sort of inherent problem with this type.

Offline wilber

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2019, 02:46:30 pm »
I don't know anything about the Max but the stabilizer trim on previous B737's has always been electric. There are two cut-out switches on the pedestal which cut off the power to the trim motors and  there has always been a procedure for a runaway stabilizer. Cut off the power, then use the manual trim wheels. The Max looks the same and I'm wondering why there might be a problem with it.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 02:51:41 pm by wilber »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2019, 03:02:08 pm »
I don't know anything about the Max but the stabilizer trim on previous B737's has always been electric. There are two cut-out switches on the pedestal which cut off the power to the trim motors and  there has always been a procedure for a runaway stabilizer. Cut off the power, then use the manual trim wheels. The Max looks the same and I'm wondering why there might be a problem with it.

And there was the recent Texas crash, of course a different model ,767, and a much older airframe, but it also went in at a horrendously high VS. I'm hoping for some black boxes soon, especially if there is some sort of correlation. 

Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2019, 04:26:10 pm »
One thing I am hearing is that the anti-stall system, new on the 737 Max may have malfunctioned due to erroneous readings from an A of A input which forced the nose down, and the pilots may have not been properly trained as to how to over ride they system. Boeing says all the info on the system is in the AFM but I sometimes wonder about the training level of some of these far flung airlines.

Offline wilber

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2019, 09:05:17 pm »
One thing I am hearing is that the anti-stall system, new on the 737 Max may have malfunctioned due to erroneous readings from an A of A input which forced the nose down, and the pilots may have not been properly trained as to how to over ride they system. Boeing says all the info on the system is in the AFM but I sometimes wonder about the training level of some of these far flung airlines.
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Me too, you would think  this would be top of the list when it came to training with most carriers after Lion Air and they would all be running simulator scenarios during recurrent training for everyone. Unlike previous models, this version seems to have a stick pusher system.

How about this for pure speculation. For some reason (say angle of attack sensor malfunction) aircraft thinks it's about to stall and starts pushing and trimming nose down. Crew says no way and starts pulling nose up. AP keeps trimming nose down and eventually the stabilizer overrides the ailerons and she pitches nose down and goes in like a dart.

Airbus has had stall prevention systems in their fly by wire aircraft for years but the 737 is not fly by wire. Former versions can be flown in manual reversion with no hydraulic boost at all. It's like driving a dump truck with no power steering but it works. You wonder what the problem is here or  if there even is a problem.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2019, 09:23:05 pm »
s

Me too, you would think  this would be top of the list when it came to training with most carriers after Lion Air and they would all be running simulator scenarios during recurrent training for everyone. Unlike previous models, this version seems to have a stick pusher system.

How about this for pure speculation. For some reason (say angle of attack sensor malfunction) aircraft thinks it's about to stall and starts pushing and trimming nose down. Crew says no way and starts pulling nose up. AP keeps trimming nose down and eventually the stabilizer overrides the ailerons and she pitches nose down and goes in like a dart.

Airbus has had stall prevention systems in their fly by wire aircraft for years but the 737 is not fly by wire. Former versions can be flown in manual reversion with no hydraulic boost at all. It's like driving a dump truck with no power steering but it works. You wonder what the problem is here or  if there even is a problem.

That concurs with my speculation. Of course it's all speculation so far, but the idea that a lack of training as to how to over ride the auto trim if it malfunctions caused by a stuck angle of attack sensor could certainly create a scenario  which could end in a nose dive. I am getting the idea that those sim. sessions should be focused a tad more on actually flying a plane hands on as well as how to push all the buttons. Look at the one that hit the seawall going into SFO on a CAVU day simply because the ILS and VASIS were US that day. A few simple calculations along with a few looks out the windscreen should have prevented that.

Offline wilber

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2019, 09:27:29 pm »
Still, there may be sensor problems. I don't recall ever having a false stick shaker warning.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2019, 09:40:02 pm »
Still, there may be sensor problems. I don't recall ever having a false stick shaker warning.

Perhaps this new auto trim system bypasses the stick shaker because it "thinks" it is handling the approaching stall/misiterpreted nose up attitude.

Offline wilber

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2019, 09:53:49 pm »
Perhaps this new auto trim system bypasses the stick shaker because it "thinks" it is handling the approaching stall/misiterpreted nose up attitude.

Still it is a matter of turning off the electrical inputs. One of the cutout switches disables the auto pilot trim and the other the manual trim. Based on the old system, a manual trim failure (stuck trim switch etc) would be obvious as the trim would operate rapidly but an autopilot induced failure could be much more subtle.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2019, 10:16:15 pm »
Still it is a matter of turning off the electrical inputs. One of the cutout switches disables the auto pilot trim and the other the manual trim. Based on the old system, a manual trim failure (stuck trim switch etc) would be obvious as the trim would operate rapidly but an autopilot induced failure could be much more subtle.

Well again what I've heard is only speculation but it suggests in both these cases there was not proper training as to how to disable and then over ride the new auto trim system if it malfunctioned. Both of these recent crashes occurred shortly after take off when altitude/attitude changes would be occurring during climb out requiring trim assistance. 

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2019, 10:19:39 pm »
The fucking hell if you ever see me on a plane with "Ethiopia Airlines" painted on the side.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2019, 10:24:31 pm »
Well again what I've heard is only speculation but it suggests in both these cases there was not proper training as to how to disable and then over ride the new auto trim system if it malfunctioned. Both of these recent crashes occurred shortly after take off when altitude/attitude changes would be occurring during climb out requiring trim assistance.

And yet photos I have seen of he Max cockpit show the same cut-out switches and manual trim wheels as the older versions.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Atlas flight 3591 crash
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2019, 10:28:11 pm »
The fucking hell if you ever see me on a plane with "Ethiopia Airlines" painted on the side.

Oh, why not. They have a very good safety rating, or do you just not like fureners? Especially if they are a different color.