Author Topic: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better  (Read 467 times)

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Offline JMT

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Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« on: July 17, 2017, 08:48:36 pm »
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/canada-america-taxes/533847/

I like taxes because they give me civilization.  I've long been a subscriber to that theory.  I remember when Jonathan Kay was one of the rightest of the right.  He seems to have a totoally different tune now.

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2017, 07:50:26 am »
This is all true enough, but the great danger is to constantly compare ourselves to our southern neighbour and to become complacent.

If we added a smidge of expectation to our complacency and acceptance of the status quo, we could engage informed publics to better deploy resources against our problems.  One example I can think of is the eHealth debacle in Ontario which no thinking public would accept.  If the government cared, they could establish some kind of citizens council, an online discussion group, to assess what is going on there and to replace the negligent news-cycle-media with a pervasive and informed presence to keep them on their toes.  But nobody likes being watched.

Offline JMT

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2017, 10:19:02 am »
The article also mentions the highest tax jurisdiction in the OECD (Denmark) and their great quality of life.  I agree, comparing only to the US is dangerous.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2017, 10:55:46 am »
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/canada-america-taxes/533847/

I like taxes because they give me civilization.  I've long been a subscriber to that theory.  I remember when Jonathan Kay was one of the rightest of the right.  He seems to have a totoally different tune now.

There is a vast difference between taxes well-spent on necessary infrastructure and taxes wasted on overly generous salaries and immense bureaucracy. By way of comparison, Canada spends roughly the same as most European countries on its health care, but gets far inferior results. Canada has the most expensive police and fire services in the world, but doesn't get better policing or fire protection. Its teachers are unparalleled in salaries and benefits but produce large numbers of ignorant people with little knowledge of the world around them, an inability to coherently state their views, or analyse or understand complex information. We have an extremely well-paid military with very few soldiers (but lots of clerks and administrators) and worn out, obsolete gear. Our legal system is an absurdly time-consuming, expensive mess. Our airports, which the author mentions, were given to the private sector some years ago, and are paid for through transit fees. Our roads and bridges are decrepit.

Your complacency is why you vote Liberal.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 10:57:50 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2017, 01:18:42 pm »
Your complacency is why you vote Liberal.

Who said anything about being complacent?  Your bitter attitude is why you vote Conservative, I suppose.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 02:00:08 pm »
Complacents vs. Bitters... new party names :D

I am left-of-centre but I work in the business world and I am witness to the fact that people argue over left/right bullshit but ignore things that could be really be improved if anyone paid attention.  Complacency is our worse problem IMO.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2017, 11:47:18 pm »
Paying taxes all depends on where it's going.  Taxes pay for things like infrastructure, health care, social programs etc.  There's lots of good things paid for by taxes.  But there's also a ton of waste in government, & much of it is terribly inefficient.  When government is paid to do something, there's no competition, which can lead to inefficiencies, waste, corruption, complacency/laziness etc.  If a private company doesn't keep costs down & keep production & efficiency high, that company will go out of business.  The civil service doesn't change much from gov to gov, 99% of the same employees doing most of the same tasks with the habits they've learned over the years/decades. I also know that the vast majority of waste, corruption etc in the gov never gets reported in the media so we never know about it, which means the waste & corruption etc in our government is worse than the vast majority of people think  Lluckily some big stories trickle out into the media & govs are held accountable sometimes for those. 

That said, sometimes even the waste & inefficiencies lead to better outcomes than private sector for the whole of society.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 05:41:49 pm by Moonlight Graham »
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Offline JMT

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 11:49:08 pm »
There's also this, showing that the corruption could be much worse (any human system is going to have problems):

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/canadas-civil-service-is-worlds-most-effective-uk-report

It's not about complacency.  Sometimes we just have to realize that we do things well.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2017, 12:03:23 am »
There's also this, showing that the corruption could be much worse (any human system is going to have problems):

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/canadas-civil-service-is-worlds-most-effective-uk-report

It's not about complacency.  Sometimes we just have to realize that we do things well.

Well if we're comparing our turd amongst a steaming pile of other turds, I'm glad ours smells the least bad.  ;D

I like our federal public service better than in the US anyways.  Some of our provinces are abysmally run though.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2017, 06:40:23 am »

That said, sometimes even the waste & inefficiencies lead to better outcomes than private sector for the whole of society.

You have nailed it with this post.  We don't spend our budgets particularly wisely, especially when compared to Europe, but it's better than some.  I'm no jingoist but we are better than most. 

I spoke to Brian, an Asian dude who owns a seedy bar that I go to from time to time, and he volunteered that he had lived everywhere - Asia, Europe etc. - and that Canada was the "best".

Why ?  He said that we had found the balance between helping common people a little bit, and making sure that it wasn't too expensive to live, ie. taxes, business environment.

Pretty simple.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2017, 06:44:53 am »
There's also this, showing that the corruption could be much worse (any human system is going to have problems):

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/canadas-civil-service-is-worlds-most-effective-uk-report

It's not about complacency.  Sometimes we just have to realize that we do things well.

I think if you use these parameters:
Canada topped the rankings based on its overall score for performance measures such as tax administration, policy making, inclusiveness, openness, integrity, crisis management, fiscal and financial management.

We probably are the best.  It doesn't speak to how efficient we are overall in applying resources to problems.  SJ pointed out that healthcare is one example, First Nations is definitely another.  If we didn't have lawyers running the show we would do much better.

I may shock left-of-centres by saying I do think that great business leaders would do better at running government in that respect.  Unfortunately, the business leaders who enter politics are only interested in cutting taxes for the rich and not in overall organizational improvement.

Offline wilber

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2017, 05:39:11 pm »
One can always be more efficient but we have to deal with reality. We have a huge country with a small population. Per capita we are always going to be more expensive when it comes to government and infrastructure. To assume we can provide the same services as Denmark for the same money is a pipe dream.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2017, 06:45:19 am »
To assume we can provide the same services as Denmark for the same money is a pipe dream.

That's not the deciding factor.  The management culture of the government seems to have a chief objective of not getting in trouble.  The willingness to take on risk is zero, and avoidance of accountability is high.

I have had to do a few projects with government, and it was impossible to get information and to get decisions made so as to move forward.  One project required the Deputy Minister, a very high profile person, to approve the schedule for us to develop a proposal.  After he rescheduled the meeting 3 times, which was several weeks' delay, we realized that we wouldn't be able to work with him as an authority on the project.  There was no other option, so we declined the work.

Management Culture is about to get an overhaul everywhere, and I expect it will go to government last.

Offline wilber

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2017, 09:51:37 am »
It's still a pipe dream to think we can provide comparable services and infrastructure at the same cost as a country with 38 times our population density. We can compare ourselves to others in how efficiently we manage our resourcea but not in the actual costs of providing infrastructure and sevices that are dictated by our geography.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2017, 10:26:19 am »
Who said anything about being complacent?  Your bitter attitude is why you vote Conservative, I suppose.

You ooze complacency, and have since Boy Trudeau came to power. I am not bitter, merely dissatisfied. It has always been my nature to seek improvement in all things, to 'fix' what isn't working, or to improve what is. My friends on telling me a problem they have with someone tend to follow it up with "Now don't try to fix this!" My mind simply works that way, always seeking solutions to issues and problems.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum