Author Topic: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?  (Read 2479 times)

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guest4

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2018, 04:39:19 pm »
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/fact-check-diversity-doesnt-make-canadians-feel-less-canadian/amp/

Interesting but needs critique.  Of course I would like to believe it.

You could critique it, then.  Do you see problems with the conclusions or the data the author cites?

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2018, 05:04:07 pm »
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/fact-check-diversity-doesnt-make-canadians-feel-less-canadian/amp/

Interesting but needs critique.  Of course I would like to believe it.

The polls from the tweet mentioned isn't explained at all.  I even googled the original tweet, it's a picture of a poll with no link.  I'm not sure exactly how this was tracked.  I wish there were more details.  Then there's another study linked, which is good, but the article gives absolutely no data taken from it to make its point, so what I have to go and read this long study myself?

The overwhelming majority of commenters on cbc.ca support what Bernier was saying, so we should at least examine it carefully.  He was responding to a portion of a public park named after a Canadian being renamed after the founder of Pakistan.  The founder of Pakistan made no contribution to Canada (that I know of) or the world at large, he's only celebrated by Pakastanis and Pakastani-Canadians.  So I agree with Bernier, why should we be naming Canadian public infrastructure after foreign politicians who mean nothing to Canadians besides the people from the country that politician is from?  If you want to honour him, go build your own park on your own private property.
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Offline TimG

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2018, 05:21:29 pm »
If you want to honour him, go build your own park on your own private property.
Don't forget that this guy is likely offensive to some other groups and since we are tearing down statues of people who *did* contribute to Canada because some find them offensive then why we putting up statues that offend one group of immigrants to appease another?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2018, 05:40:49 pm »
The polls from the tweet mentioned isn't explained at all.  .

Ok, good job.  I will look again.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2018, 06:02:44 pm »
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/fact-check-diversity-doesnt-make-canadians-feel-less-canadian/amp/

Interesting but needs critique.  Of course I would like to believe it.

They are attempting to extrapolate the number they want from other somewhat nebulous data. Were Canadians as comfortable as you are with the number of immigrants around them 68% would not have told an Angus Reid poll that immigrants needed to do more to fit in.

In a national polling partnership between CBC and the Angus Reid Institute, 68 per cent of Canadian respondents said minorities should be doing more to fit in with mainstream society instead of keeping their own customs and languages.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/poll-canadians-multiculturalism-immigrants-1.3784194
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2018, 06:05:14 pm »
The overwhelming majority of commenters on cbc.ca support what Bernier was saying, so we should at least examine it carefully.  He was responding to a portion of a public park named after a Canadian being renamed after the founder of Pakistan.  The founder of Pakistan made no contribution to Canada (that I know of) or the world at large, he's only celebrated by Pakastanis and Pakastani-Canadians. 

And ironically, he is most famous for stating that Muslims cannot live together in the same nation as Hindus and Sikhs. It was he and the Muslim Brotherhood that he led, who campagned for an independant Muslim state, which resulted, eventually, in millions of deaths.

Great person to commemorate in the name of diversity! A guy who broke up his country because he couldn't stand diversity!
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2018, 06:23:24 pm »
“Declining outcomes of recent immigrants have shown that integration is not automatic,” says the report, which surveys emerging problems with immigration flows and the pressure it’s putting on Canadian sectors.

Despite language requirements for immigrants and the availability of free language classes in Canada, many may not be learning English or French nor passing it onto their young children.

The study found that in one large school district in Metro Toronto, three out of 10 children needing ESL training were born in Canada.


https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-canada-struggling-to-absorb-immigrants-internal-report-says
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2018, 07:50:45 pm »
And ironically, he is most famous for stating that Muslims cannot live together in the same nation as Hindus and Sikhs. It was he and the Muslim Brotherhood that he led, who campagned for an independant Muslim state, which resulted, eventually, in millions of deaths.

Great person to commemorate in the name of diversity! A guy who broke up his country because he couldn't stand diversity!

I don't know much about the man, but I know it was Gandhi's dream of a united India, which failed after his death.  It's probably best that the Muslim portions separated, just look at how the Punjabis/Sikh's have been treated in India.  People crave self-determination, it is the very basis of the nation-state.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2018, 08:15:14 pm »
I don't know much about the man, but I know it was Gandhi's dream of a united India, which failed after his death.  It's probably best that the Muslim portions separated, just look at how the Punjabis/Sikh's have been treated in India.  People crave self-determination, it is the very basis of the nation-state.

But... but... diversity is our strength!! :o
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2018, 06:40:58 am »
The polls from the tweet mentioned isn't explained at all.  I even googled the original tweet, it's a picture of a poll with no link.  I'm not sure exactly how this was tracked.  I wish there were more details.  Then there's another study linked, which is good, but the article gives absolutely no data taken from it to make its point, so what I have to go and read this long study myself?


The 'sense of belonging' survey seems pretty well-known.  I think this is it, although it took some looking: (from 2002)

http://www.urbancentre.utoronto.ca/pdfs/housingconference/Statistics.pdf

You can also download the Californian academic paper.  It's not that long and you can go to the conclusion, and flip back to the polls:

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/TCM-canadian-exceptionalism

Quote
The overwhelming majority of commenters on cbc.ca support what Bernier was saying, so we should at least examine it carefully.

Uhhh... well, yes and no maybe.  If we listen to a loud minority are we any better than listening to a loud religious minority that says we shouldn't teach sex in public schools because The Koran ? 

But I am not substantively disputing that we have disunity, or at least APPARENT disunity.

Quote
  He was responding to a portion of a public park named after a Canadian being renamed after the founder of Pakistan.  The founder of Pakistan made no contribution to Canada (that I know of) or the world at large, he's only celebrated by Pakastanis and Pakastani-Canadians.  So I agree with Bernier, why should we be naming Canadian public infrastructure after foreign politicians who mean nothing to Canadians besides the people from the country that politician is from?  If you want to honour him, go build your own park on your own private property.

Yeah, we have things dedicated to foreign born folks all over, including Sir John A :D

Identity is maybe THE most irrational topic.  I am the friend of people who want to bring those discussions into a rational sphere but that also means excluding people who show up the discussion to cause ****.  Why are we having a discussion if not to forge a unified country ?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2018, 06:49:02 am »
They are attempting to extrapolate the number they want from other somewhat nebulous data. Were Canadians as comfortable as you are with the number of immigrants around them 68% would not have told an Angus Reid poll that immigrants needed to do more to fit in.

In a national polling partnership between CBC and the Angus Reid Institute, 68 per cent of Canadian respondents said minorities should be doing more to fit in with mainstream society instead of keeping their own customs and languages.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/poll-canadians-multiculturalism-immigrants-1.3784194

Your poll is more recent, so I think things are changing.  Which tells me it's time now to have a national discussion about this topic.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2018, 06:49:46 am »
You could critique it, then.  Do you see problems with the conclusions or the data the author cites?

I asked because I wanted to start with those who were skeptical.  I recognize my own bias in such things and I wanted to start on the other side of the topic.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2018, 08:39:36 am »
Why are we having a discussion if not to forge a unified country ?
Some people believe that unifying the country means ensuring that everyone is white and Christian. The don't believe you can have unity across races, religions, and cultures, so they advocate segregation and fight against diversity.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2018, 11:31:48 am »
Your poll is more recent, so I think things are changing.  Which tells me it's time now to have a national discussion about this topic.

Given the howls of anger directed at Bernier I don't think the mainstream media or politicians have any interest in such a discussion. 49% of Canadians say immigration is too high. I would challenge the media to interview every federal MP and every provincial MPP and try to find even one who would be willing to agree with that view, much less publicly represent it. It would be interesting to watch the video since I think it would resemble those 'fraud investigation' things done by Marketplace where they're trying to interview someone who is running away and holding his jacket over his head.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Rue

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Re: When do immigrants become "Canadians"?
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2018, 11:46:15 am »
Ultimately the discussion comes down to what qualifies anyone to be a desirable citizen of Canada. Unless someone has an objective criteria they can show me, its necessarily results in people expressing their subjective opinions as to what they think makes a good Canadian. Their religious views may impact negatively on that question depending on what beliefs it "inspires" in them.

Anyone of any religion conceivably could be a negative citizen depending on how their religion influences their method of believes and in particular towards others and its existing state laws.

Even if its true someone can show me a negative citizen "tendency" , "characteristic", "pattern" of belief or behaviour within a certain group does this then mean we assume all people in that group have this same  tendency, characteristic, etc.

Making assumptions as to how an individual will behave as a citizen based soley on the fact that may be a member of a particular religious group for me is both illogical and not necessarily accurate,

Let's face it, if you want to assume anyone of a specific religion is "bad" I doubt you have objective data that could prove that. I think you could show a higher propensity to certain diseases based on particular blood types or genetic predispositions which could predict someone'sw likely dependency on the medical system of Canada, but fo rit to be able to infer other things? I myself would still want to see evidence of each person on an individual level and base any analysis or assessment on their individual behaviour and not merely assume behavioural characteristics on the fact they call themselves a follower of a particular religion.

If I assumed  all Jews think the same would be illogical. I certainly won't make that illogical inference with Christians so I won't do it with Muslims, Hindus, etc. I think its a bit more complex than that analyzing an individual's behavioural profile. However tempting it may be ot find repeat patterns in this dimension we live in, they may not be patterns at all but subjective projections as to the patterns existing.

It depends on the preconditions and tools you use to then see what you see. A microscope sees different things depending on what level of vision you ask it to take on. So do people when they analyze the behaviour of their fellow humans.

Our own values, emotions, preconceived views/opinions, necessarily adjust the level of vision we then look through.

In conclusion I hate all humans equally and Judge all of us identically as poo heads.

I prefer animals.

I do place these humans on my exemption list of blanket condemnation:

Justin Trudeau's psychiatrist
Melania Trump

You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.