Author Topic: What public service job  (Read 270 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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What public service job
« on: November 20, 2017, 06:15:19 pm »
Pays better somewhere else than in Canada?

Police?
Firefighter?
Doctor?
Bus driver?
Garbageman?
Air traffic controller?
Teacher?
Whatever?

By country, not by city.
For example, you might find a city or two in the US where the pay rate for, say, cops is as good as in Canada. But you'll also find hundreds of departments where the pay is way less. We tend to have fairly universal rates in Canada. A teacher in BC might make a bit less than a teacher in Ontario, but not substantially so. Etc.

So why do we pay so much here?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

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Offline TimG

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2017, 06:40:01 pm »
So why do we pay so much here?
It is complicated to compare base rates because the cost of living and pensions matter a lot. My understanding is the under funded pension problem in the US is so bad even states like Illinois are going to be forced in bankruptcy. This pension probably has had the effect of suppressing wages for public sector workers in the US because the state/city are already diverting so much of their tax revenue to paying pensions that unions cannot get pay raises for existing workers. If we pay more but have pension funds that are solvent then taxpayers here got a better deal.

guest4

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2017, 07:08:28 pm »
So why do we pay so much here?

Because our country is different than the other ones we might compare to.  Comparing absolute wages across countries is pointless, really.  A doctor in Brazil might make less money than a doctor in Canada, but relative to the wages of the rest of the country and his purchasing power, he may be doing exactly as well as a doctor in Canada.


Offline wilber

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2017, 08:09:32 pm »
Because our country is different than the other ones we might compare to.  Comparing absolute wages across countries is pointless, really.  A doctor in Brazil might make less money than a doctor in Canada, but relative to the wages of the rest of the country and his purchasing power, he may be doing exactly as well as a doctor in Canada.

I agree. During the early nineties I worked for a Japanese carrier. They employed Brazilian contract flight attendants for their flights from LAX to Sao Paulo. I spoke to one who was a qualified dentist. She could make more as a flight attendant for the Japanese than she could as a dentist at home. She was saving to set up her own practice once she stopped flying.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2017, 08:31:59 pm »
Because our country is different than the other ones we might compare to.  Comparing absolute wages across countries is pointless, really.  A doctor in Brazil might make less money than a doctor in Canada, but relative to the wages of the rest of the country and his purchasing power, he may be doing exactly as well as a doctor in Canada.

I recognize that it's difficult to make comparisons. But it's not impossible. I believe the cost of living in a place like London England is greater than anywhere in Canada, and if Canadian public servants are making more than they are in London what exactly would the reason be? I've looked, in the past, at Canadian police and firefighters, and they seem to make more than anywhere but a couple of cities in the US - a third more than in the European countries I could check. Air Traffic Control people in London make a lot less than they do in Canada, between 50-55k pounds (about $90k can) Canadian ATCs average $104k.  London bus drivers make between 20-25k pounds, which tops out at about $42k canadian. Most city bus drivers make about $60k in Canada, and some make over 100k with overtime.  A Canadian teacher, after ten years or so, makes $85k or so while the average teacher salary in the UK is $60k canadian.

It seems to me that more and more often when we talk about the middle class we're talking about public servants.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

guest4

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 08:25:33 am »
I recognize that it's difficult to make comparisons. But it's not impossible. I believe the cost of living in a place like London England is greater than anywhere in Canada, and if Canadian public servants are making more than they are in London what exactly would the reason be? I've looked, in the past, at Canadian police and firefighters, and they seem to make more than anywhere but a couple of cities in the US - a third more than in the European countries I could check. Air Traffic Control people in London make a lot less than they do in Canada, between 50-55k pounds (about $90k can) Canadian ATCs average $104k.  London bus drivers make between 20-25k pounds, which tops out at about $42k canadian. Most city bus drivers make about $60k in Canada, and some make over 100k with overtime.  A Canadian teacher, after ten years or so, makes $85k or so while the average teacher salary in the UK is $60k canadian. 

The link below lists the best-paying countries for doctors; it mentions that docs from the UK leave to go work in Australia because Australia pays better and that docs in Canada go to the US, because the US pays better.   I didn't look up any of the other public service occupations you listed, but if people will go elsewhere for better wages, then who will fill those positions in Canada?   Immigrants from countries where those occupations make less, right?   Still using doctors as an example, if paying them less means we lose more of them, we may have to change our requirements to allow doctors from India or Pakistan or the Middle East to fill the gap.  Now, I'm ok with my GP wearing a turban or hijab, but are you?

https://www.careeraddict.com/top-5-countries-with-the-highest-paid-salaries-for-doctors

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It seems to me that more and more often when we talk about the middle class we're talking about public servants.

Are you suggesting that it's a problem if public servants achieve a middle-class income?   What do you suppose happens if we lower all the wages for public servants?  Consider who we see more and more of in retail and fast food places - immigrants, right?   Do you think that people from your preferred places of immigration are going to be beating down our doors to take poorly-paid government jobs?   Do you suppose you'd be happy if government workers and bureaucrats consisted almost entirely of immigrants from places like the Middle East, Pakistan, and India?   You won't even considering hiring those people if you think you can identify them by their name, so it would surprise me if you'd be ok with that. 

By the way, I am currently employed in the public service and I make less than I did in the private sector, so much so that that I qualify for GST rebate cheques for the first time in a decade.   Everyone I've spoken to is aware that they could make more in the private sector, but they stay because they think they are providing a valuable service for citizens, they find the work interesting and varied, and the pension is good.  But take away too much of their day-to-day income, and/or their pension and they'll move on - especially since many private sector jobs offer similar or better benefits and pension.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 01:43:47 pm »
The link below lists the best-paying countries for doctors; it mentions that docs from the UK leave to go work in Australia because Australia pays better and that docs in Canada go to the US, because the US pays better.   I didn't look up any of the other public service occupations you listed, but if people will go elsewhere for better wages, then who will fill those positions in Canada?

Doctors are one profession which is somewhat portable if you speak English. Most of the others are not. I don't see our bus drivers fleeing somewhere else if we pay them less, much less our police and firefighters. And I'm not suggesting we lower wages to the basement. But why should our teachers, police,  firefighters, etc,  be paid 20-30-40% more than their counterparts in all other western countries?

The US is an anomaly in terms of the pay rate for doctors because they're not paid by government. Don't know about Australia but I'm sure ours make more than theirs do.

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Are you suggesting that it's a problem if public servants achieve a middle-class income?

Hardly. I'm suggesting its a problem when most of the middle class are public servants - paid by those who are not public servants and who earn quite a bit less with far fewer benefits.

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By the way, I am currently employed in the public service and I make less than I did in the private sector, so much so that that I qualify for GST rebate cheques for the first time in a decade.   Everyone I've spoken to is aware that they could make more in the private sector, but they stay because they think they are providing a valuable service for citizens, they find the work interesting and varied, and the pension is good.

I never met anyone in my time with government who worked there for any other reason than that the pay and benefits were better than elsewhere, along with job security. Not saying there might not be some jobs along those lines, but in general, government jobs pay better than the private sector except in the higher levels.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline wilber

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 02:09:39 pm »
Police officers can move. We have several in our police force who came from forces in the US and UK.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 02:46:39 pm »
Police officers can move. We have several in our police force who came from forces in the US and UK.

Not easily. Most big city forces have long waiting lists, and then no matter where you come from you still have to go through training.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

guest4

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 03:31:00 pm »
Doctors are one profession which is somewhat portable if you speak English. Most of the others are not. I don't see our bus drivers fleeing somewhere else if we pay them less, much less our police and firefighters.

If people think they can make more money using their skills in a different country, why wouldn't they move?   Perhaps not garbage collectors, as you say, but air traffic controllers?  Doctors?  Nurses?  Teachers?  Policemen?  Scientists?   If those kinds of professions are in demand in other areas of the world, and the pay rate is better, why wouldn't they move?    You like the idea of immigrants from developing countries filling those positions in our society?

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And I'm not suggesting we lower wages to the basement. But why should our teachers, police,  firefighters, etc,  be paid 20-30-40% more than their counterparts in all other western countries?

I seriously doubt your contention that the differences are anywhere near 40%; do you have anything to back up that figure? 

But in any case, why shouldn't they be?  Is it because you think you pay too much in taxes?  All the people whose income you'd happily decrease also pay taxes.  They buy a lot of stuff with their discretionary income.  Public service employees number over three million in Canada.  How do you suppose reducing the incomes of over three million Canadians would actually work out, in practice?  Do you suppose fewer people buying fewer houses, cars and gee-gaws and paying even less in taxes is really a good idea?  You already complain about people not paying enough in taxes, leaving a huge tax burden on people such as yourself, and so your solution is to add millions more to that number?  Seriously?

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The US is an anomaly in terms of the pay rate for doctors because they're not paid by government. Don't know about Australia but I'm sure ours make more than theirs do.
You'd be wrong.  Australia, the Netherlands, the US and Belgium all pay their doctors more on average.   
https://www.careeraddict.com/top-5-countries-with-the-highest-paid-salaries-for-doctors


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Hardly. I'm suggesting its a problem when most of the middle class are public servants - paid by those who are not public servants and who earn quite a bit less with far fewer benefits.

Really?  You think three million people make up the bulk of the middle class in a country of 36 million? 

But aside from that, I thought everyone below middle class didn't pay enough taxes, or any, or something - so the government is supported almost entirely on the income level into which you (claim) you fall.  But look, today you are all worried about the 'lower income earners'.  Hahaha. 

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I never met anyone in my time with government who worked there for any other reason than that the pay and benefits were better than elsewhere, along with job security. Not saying there might not be some jobs along those lines, but in general, government jobs pay better than the private sector except in the higher levels.

Clearly, we talk to different people. 

Anyway, you have nothing to complain about --  your (claimed) income group gained a full percentage point in after-tax income from 2006-2015, while everyone else lost ground.  Your dream of shrinking the middle class is alive and well.

http://torontosun.com/2017/07/02/canadas-middle-class-shrinks--lets-talk-about-trudeaus-socks/wcm/62080b2f-1b79-49a2-9eda-559723306dd7




Offline cybercoma

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 04:40:58 pm »
Why is the assumption that we pay too much and not that others pay too little?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 05:30:43 pm by cybercoma »

Offline wilber

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 05:24:53 pm »
Not easily. Most big city forces have long waiting lists, and then no matter where you come from you still have to go through training.

Yes they do have to go through training but candidates are chosen according to character and life experience, not when they applied.  They already have a leg up on the later and likely the former as well. They already have a track record as a police officer. When a department hires they take those they feel are the best available, not when they applied. In BC, candidates have to be accepted by the Justice Institute where they train as well as by the department that hired them.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 06:47:58 pm »
Why is the assumption that we pay too much and not that others pay too little?

I believe in Capitalism. That means it annoys me that we bring in TFWs to lower wages. It also annoys me when we pay more than a job is worth. That's the ideological aspect. The practical aspect is that the more we spend on one thing the less we have available for another. Or, the more we spend on cops, teachers, ambulance attendants, the less of them we can afford to have. Canada has, as far as I can tell, the most expensive cops on Earth. I don't think it's a coincidence we have a lower police to citizen ratio than just about any western nation. We can't afford more. As bus driver salaries rose, the local bus station began to prune back routes, closing the lesser used ones and amalgamating others while lengthening wait times, leaving much inferior service. That we pay teachers so much means the quality of educations suffers as we have larger classrooms and with poorer equipment and materials. Paying high salaries might seem generous but it comes at a cost to society at large.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 06:48:51 pm »
Yes they do have to go through training but candidates are chosen according to character and life experience, not when they applied.  They already have a leg up on the later and likely the former as well. They already have a track record as a police officer. When a department hires they take those they feel are the best available, not when they applied. In BC, candidates have to be accepted by the Justice Institute where they train as well as by the department that hired them.

Well, that's fine, but there's no reason cops would want to leave Canada for elsewhere if we simply paid the same rates as other countries.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 08:16:21 pm »
I don't get your response.  Cyber basically asks "what is worth" "what should things cost" and you come back saying some things cost too much, and others too little based on your own sense of things.