Author Topic: What constitutes genocide?  (Read 4315 times)

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Offline Granny

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #465 on: June 30, 2019, 06:14:15 pm »
So can someone on this board on this topic, just once explain what they think would be positive solutions for aboriginals in a non patronizing way?

I think only Indigenous People can speak to that.
Read the MMIW report and see what they say, maybe?

I think there's been enough of other people deciding what's 'good for them'.
I think that's how we got to this debate about genocide.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 06:40:02 pm by Granny »
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Offline eyeball

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #466 on: June 30, 2019, 06:59:56 pm »
Heaven forbid we shoulder any guilt!
I don't feel guilty for having been born into a genocidal nation I feel pissed off.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #467 on: June 30, 2019, 07:28:48 pm »
What the heck would that even do? 
I think it's more important that we should be feeling the effect of acknowledging our heritage. 

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We've already had the TRC, the gov has apologized, given reparations.
Good for them, what we still don't seem to get is why. I think's its quite appropriate that this has pissed off and polarized so many non-natives against one another. Divide and conquer seemed to work for us against them so.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #468 on: June 30, 2019, 07:57:35 pm »
I think it's more important that we should be feeling the effect of acknowledging our heritage. 

You think it's more important for non-aboriginals to feel certain emotions about our past than for non-aboriginals to get to work on actually fixing the horrible conditions that aboriginals suffer in large part caused by the repercussions of our past bad deeds?

Which do you think natives care about more?
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Offline Granny

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #469 on: June 30, 2019, 09:16:58 pm »
You think it's more important for non-aboriginals to feel certain emotions about our past than for non-aboriginals to get to work on actually fixing the horrible conditions that aboriginals suffer in large part caused by the repercussions of our past bad deeds?
Or both.

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Which do you think natives care about more?

Now.
We have to fix the relationships, laws, land disputes.
We have to fix the hunger of governments to extinguish Indigenous land rights throughout Canada's history because business must have "certainty".

That's a bit of a sticky point.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 09:32:56 pm by Granny »

Offline eyeball

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #470 on: June 30, 2019, 09:59:11 pm »
You think it's more important for non-aboriginals to feel certain emotions about our past than for non-aboriginals to get to work on actually fixing the horrible conditions that aboriginals suffer in large part caused by the repercussions of our past bad deeds?
You got it. It's a two-stepped process. The latter will always be a token effort if the former isn't afforded more seriousness.

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Which do you think natives care about more?
That it finally sinks in.

Offline Rue

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #471 on: July 02, 2019, 10:58:50 am »
I think only Indigenous People can speak to that.
Read the MMIW report and see what they say, maybe?

I think there's been enough of other people deciding what's 'good for them'.
I think that's how we got to this debate about genocide.

My rhetorical question was: "can someone on this board on this topic, just once explain what they think would be positive solutions for aboriginals in a non patronizing way?" In regards to my question I deliberately stated " in a non patronizing way".

I don't agree with you that a non-aboriginal cannot join a conversation as to positive ways that can help.  In fact it would be illogical to  suggest the only solutions will be what aboriginals decide.  It will require to way discussion and agreement not unilateral demands. You mistake conflict resolution as automatically being patronizing or negotiations as automatically being patronizing which is not logical. In fact if we followed your argument solutions should be implemented by one way unilateral demands which makes no sense. As well using that logic, a doctor who has never had cancer should never treat someone with cancer. Again that makes no sense. So I wquld argue we do require two way dialogue. Where I gree with you is if our dialogue is not genuinely mutually respectful it won't be effective and may entrench certain aboriginal  positions.

In fact the whole method of how aboriginal culture negotiations is from listening as much as talking.Aboriginals have never rejected opportunities to negotiate and discuss when they have been done with mutual respect. The whole concept of their healing circles is just that.

Here is an example of what I mean. I like some, question the Indian Act. Do I need to be aboriginal to question it? The Indian Act took 60 to 80 Nations or Tribes and divided them into 633
small federal administrative enclaves called “bands” on some 3,000 reserves. The aboriginal leaders say this redefined this nations was wards of the state through these bands rather than recognize the 60-80 nations as a collective identity through a treaty symbolized through the wampum belt. So to them this is the starting point of what they see is the major problem when dealing with our federal government.

Well it makes sense. The entire band system is corrupt with millions of dollars lost in the maze of corrupt band administrative systems and no one auditing how the money is spent and surely as aboriginals tell us even the definition of a "reservation" no longer makes sense.

So I ask you and others, what if we did away with this act. What if we had the aboriginals create an actual aboriginal council of leaders elected like MP's are from all over Canada. Then we take say 10 of their elected representatives they vote on, who sit in our federal Parliament in 10 seats and also are guaranteed a certain no. of seats in the Senate until they do away with that useless appendage.

I just use that as an example. Its been suggested but none of us talk about it. If we are talking about healing or reconciling we have to seriously look at that Indian Act.

Here are three examples where two way dialogue from aboriginal leaders and the medical profession  id lead to new policy initiatives and incorporates your concern we create solutions not by imposing but by listening:

https://www.cfpc.ca/uploadedFiles/Resources/Resource_Items/Health_Professionals/GuideHealthProfessionalsAboriginal.pdf

https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/thesescanada/vol2/OSUL/TC-OSUL-1981.pdf

https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/thesescanada/vol2/OSUL/TC-OSUL-392.pdf

Here is one working specifically with aboriginal youth to deal with health and wellness issues:

http://www.jcsh-cces.ca/upload/14-193_BuildingOurStrengths_CFN_RPT.pdf

The point is as we speak something is being done every minute of the day in Canada to heal the relationship between us. We are not an evil nation. We are trying to repair and heal.

Here are examples of businesses making partnerships with aboriginals:

https://sustainability.suncor.com/en/social-responsibility/partnering-with-aboriginal-businesses

http://www.rbc.com/newsroom/20020325coffey.html

https://corporate-responsibility.bmo.com/our-practices/responsible-banking/indigenous-banking/

https://www.kruger.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/4_Corporate-Responsibility_Environement_Politique_Premières_nations_EN.pdf

https://www.shell.ca/en_ca/media/features/feature-articles-2016/shell-receives-aboriginal-relations-award/_jcr_content/par/textimage_9941.html







« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 11:40:35 am by Rue »
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Offline Granny

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #472 on: July 03, 2019, 06:36:34 pm »
My rhetorical question was: "can someone on this board on this topic, just once explain what they think would be positive solutions for aboriginals in a non patronizing way?" In regards to my question I deliberately stated " in a non patronizing way".
I don't agree with you that a non-aboriginal cannot join a conversation as to positive ways that can help. 

In fact it would be illogical to  suggest the only solutions will be what aboriginals decide.  It will require to way discussion and agreement not unilateral demands.

How do you propose to have a two way discussion here?

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So I wquld argue we do require two way dialogue. Where I gree with you is if our dialogue is not genuinely mutually respectful it won't be effective and may entrench certain aboriginal  positions.
Such as ... ?

Quote
n fact the whole method of how aboriginal culture negotiations is from listening as much as talking.Aboriginals have never rejected opportunities to negotiate and discuss when they have been done with mutual respect. The whole concept of their healing circles is just that.

Here is an example of what I mean. I like some, question the Indian Act. Do I need to be aboriginal to question it? The Indian Act took 60 to 80 Nations or Tribes and divided them into 633
small federal administrative enclaves called “bands” on some 3,000 reserves. The aboriginal leaders say this redefined this nations was wards of the state through these bands rather than recognize the 60-80 nations as a collective identity through a treaty symbolized through the wampum belt. So to them this is the starting point of what they see is the major problem when dealing with our federal government.

The Supreme Court does already recognize both  Traditional and Treaty Territories.
(Ie, with and without treaty)

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Well it makes sense. The entire band system is corrupt with millions of dollars lost in the maze of corrupt band administrative systems and no one auditing how the money is spent

How many First Nations Band Councils' websites have you checked for an Audited Financial Statement?
Get back to us on that.
Your disinformed comments here are just defamation/hate speech that originates from white supremacists.
And btw ... the Band Council system belongs to Canada. Canada forcibly imposed it on Indigenous communities in the 1920's, at RCMP gunpoint where there was resistance. The RCMP also conducted searches and seized Treaty wampum belts.
And also made 'Indian' Residential Schools mandatory, to kill off as many Indigenous kids as they could, especially those of the Traditional Council leaders ... and sterilize the women too.

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and surely as aboriginals tell us even the definition of a "reservation" no longer makes sense.
Never did up here.

We have land Reserves.
They make sense now as they are 'home' communities to many people.

They didn't make sense as apartheid camps, when Indigenous people were forcibly confined there, unable to leave without a 'Pass', seldom granted.

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So I ask you and others, what if we did away with this act. What if we had the aboriginals create an actual aboriginal council of leaders elected like MP's are from all over Canada.
Then we take say 10 of their elected representatives they vote on, who sit in our federal Parliament in 10 seats and also are guaranteed a certain no. of seats in the Senate until they do away with that useless appendage.

See, this is where it becomes extremely patronizing, a one-way white-settler agenda proposed by 1 person ... who just falsely accused all Indigenous communities of being "corrupt" ... to be imposed in Indigenous people, without their input.

Your ignorance and white superiority complex are astoundingly tone deaf.

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I just use that as an example. Its been suggested but none of us talk about it. If we are talking about healing or reconciling we have to seriously look at that Indian Act.

No question.
And the Supreme Court rulings.
The Supreme Court is begging politicians to declare Aboriginal Title where the court's criteria clearly warrant it.  Let's get on with it. Stop fighting it expensively again in court every time.
Because that's what politicians will do ... spend a lot of money stalling ... whether in courts or negotiations, they just stall.
Because government's duty is to minimize the liability of the Crown.
So on it goes ... government's continue bleeding money while doing nothing.

No matter how many conversations there are, the government's intent remains the same:
Divest Indigenous Peoples of their land rights.
Because business needs "certainty".


« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:26:47 pm by Granny »

Offline Rue

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #473 on: July 04, 2019, 11:45:15 am »
Granny I have no idea what your last response meant. On the one hand you state only aboriginals can speak to resolving the conflicts with them but that is illogical as they would have to speak to the rest of Canada because if for no other reason that is who the conflict is with and conflicts are not resolved by only one side dictating. Then in your next breath you started making suggestions on how to resolve the conflict contradicting your earlier statement only aboriginals should.

Then you asked me for audits of financial statements from Bands.To start with one of the problems Granny is that many bands have no financial statements let alone audited ones let alone accurate ones or ones even remotely close to balancing.

Self government as it is today for aboriginals is NOT working. The band structure and how money is handed out has to be changed. There is NO transparency as to how money is  being spent in spite of legislation requiring it but can not be enforced to require it.

Its a complex issues and I doubt any of you whining about genocide have given it any thought. Self government in principle is great to scream for and demand, but how you implement it is the question.


http://www.joaag.com/uploads/7_1__2_Wong_FINAL.pdf

https://warriorpublications.wordpress.com/tag/band-council-corruption/

https://warriorpublications.wordpress.com/tag/band-councils/

https://www.mymuskokanow.com/89339/wahta-protester-says-they-have-proof-of-corruption/

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/rethinkingthereserve/Week+Problems+governance/280526/story.html

https://www.bing.com/profile/history?form=edgehs

https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/canada-discussion-forum/

You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #474 on: July 04, 2019, 01:20:01 pm »
There is NO transparency as to how money is  being spent in spite of legislation requiring it but can not be enforced to require it.

Not sure what transparency you want. You say that self government is not working, yet you want to micro manage it.

Offline Granny

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #475 on: July 04, 2019, 01:30:27 pm »
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Granny I have no idea what your last response meant. On the one hand you state only aboriginals can speak to resolving the conflicts with them but that is illogical as they would have to speak to the rest of Canada because if for no other reason that is who the conflict is with and conflicts are not resolved by only one side dictating. Then in your next breath you started making suggestions on how to resolve the conflict contradicting your earlier statement only aboriginals should.
I posted it half finished. Read it again.

You are just twisting words and spinning lies.
Your understanding of Indigenous issues comes from white supremacists, Rue.
They may disguise themselves as 'Christians'.
Same thing.
White Christian bigots with a superiority complex.

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Then you asked me for audits of financial statements from Bands.To start with one of the problems Granny is that many bands have no financial statements let alone audited ones let alone accurate ones or ones even remotely close to balancing.

Prove it. How many First Nations websites have you checked? What are you basing your lies on?
Facts say ...
These insinuations are directed with a purpose. Financial corruption exists but is not widespread on reserves. INAC knows this well because band budgets are carefully scrutinized throughout the year and rigorously audited on annual timetables.
https://ricochet.media/en/1994/mercenary-colonialism-third-party-management

Those white supremacist lies you spew are just hate speech from twisted Christian bigots still trying to justify the genocide they inflicted on Indigenous children.
And governments that allow/encourage the lies to  flourish.

You fall for that? You adopt and spread the propaganda that Indigenous people are somehow 'less than ...' ?
Isn't there a lesson in your own history about such pogroms of hatred?
Stop spamming this thread with your disinformed Christian bigotry, Rue. 

The only changes Canada's government will ever make to the 'Indian' Act will be for the purpose of attempting AGAIN to destroy Indigenous land rights, another "attempt to destroy" Indigenous Peoples "as such".

Because Canada's business needs "certainty". (J.Trudeau 2019)


So just stop, Rue.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 02:41:13 pm by Granny »

Offline Granny

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #476 on: July 05, 2019, 01:40:18 am »
Granny I have no idea what your last response meant. On the one hand you state only aboriginals can speak to resolving the conflicts with them
I said read the report and see what they suggest.
You said a two way dialogue, and then proceeded  with a monologue about what you think they should do.
Where's the two way dialogue Rue?
This is just all you and your second-hand  Christan bigot disinformation and defamation.

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but that is illogical as they would have to speak to the rest of Canada because if for no other reason that is who the conflict is with and conflicts are not resolved by only one side dictating. Then in your next breath you started making suggestions on how to resolve the conflict contradicting your earlier statement only aboriginals should.

Then you asked me for audits of financial statements from Bands.To start with one of the problems Granny is that many bands have no financial statements let alone audited ones let alone accurate ones or ones even remotely close to balancing.
Wich ones did you check, Rue? What's your source?
Rumors and defamation are not evidence.

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Self government as it is today for aboriginals is NOT working. The band structure and how money is handed out has to be changed. There is NO transparency as to how money is  being spent in spite of legislation requiring it but can not be enforced to require it.

Its a complex issues and I doubt any of you whining about genocide have given it any thought. Self government in principle is great to scream for and demand, but how you implement it is the question.

You have vague and biased stereotypes and no real knowledge, and you make defamatory comments, so your intentions are highly suspect.

I won't discuss this with you any further.


« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 01:52:39 am by Granny »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: What constitutes genocide?
« Reply #477 on: July 19, 2019, 09:33:44 am »
I agreed with you!  Good lord...  Are you being purposely obtuse???

How are murdered indigenous women murdered by mostly other indigenous folks a cultural genocide?
Because the violence and drug abuse is a direct consequence of the history of deprivation, abuse and isolation that was forced upon those communities. Context matters.