Author Topic: Violence on the east coast  (Read 230 times)

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Offline the_squid

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Violence on the east coast
« on: October 14, 2020, 06:47:12 pm »
There’s a big fight between the legal commercial lobster fishery and the other legal commercial lobster fishery that involves indigenous fishers.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5761468

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Commercial fishermen began gathering Tuesday afternoon in Digby County and made their way to a lobster pound in New Edinburgh, where, by nightfall, a van was set ablaze, lobsters were stolen and the facility was damaged.

A similar raid also took place in Middle West Pubnico, in the neighbouring county of Yarmouth, where Mi'kmaw fisherman Jason Marr was forced to barricade himself inside a lobster pound while outside a mob vandalized his vehicle and called for him to relinquish the lobster he had harvested from the waters of St. Marys Bay.

By morning, hundreds of dead lobster were strewn across the pavement outside the pound, and confrontations continued on the ground throughout the day.

The two raids come after weeks of unrest in the province's southwest, sparked by the launch of a "moderate livelihood" lobster fishery by the Sipekne'katik band outside the federally mandated commercial season.

I understand that commercial lobstermen are concerned about their livelihood (aren’t the Mi’kmaw fishermen trying to earn a livelihood too?), but this is getting close to domestic terrorism...   raiding legally caught lobsters, torching vehicles....   

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Offline MH

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2020, 07:09:23 pm »
A couple more fisherfolk... does it matter ?  And this is a treaty right that they have anyway. 

Offline kimmy

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2020, 07:40:51 pm »
I believe that indigenous peoples are guaranteed the right to hunt and fish for food and spiritual reasons, but I'm not certain that the right to a commercial fishery is guaranteed.

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Offline JMT

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2020, 07:45:02 pm »
I believe that indigenous peoples are guaranteed the right to hunt and fish for food and spiritual reasons, but I'm not certain that the right to a commercial fishery is guaranteed.

 -k

As far as I understand, that's been decided in a court case:

In 1999, the Supreme Court of Canada (SCOC) released the Marshall Decision. The court did not give the Mi’kmaq the right to fish – but recognized and upheld that right enshrined in the Treaties.

The judges created the term Moderate Livelihood so the Mi’kmaq can make money, but not get rich. Then the court issued a second decision with a clarification that this right can be regulated by Canada.

https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/the-facts-behind-mikmaw-fishing-rights/
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2020, 08:17:41 pm »
I believe that indigenous peoples are guaranteed the right to hunt and fish for food and spiritual reasons, but I'm not certain that the right to a commercial fishery is guaranteed.

 -k

This particular nation has a right to a “moderate living”.   If this makes too many commercial harvesters, the feds can buy out the non-indigenous commercial lobstermen.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2020, 12:44:01 am »
"moderate living" remains broadly undefined through 2 decades+ of assorted governments. Not sure what "regulatory mechanism/process" allows the indigenous to assign their own fishing licenses... notwithstanding it appears, if the waldo interprets correctly, they've extended upon that to also issue their own buyers licenses to allow their catches to go to market.

as the waldo reads:
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In the past year or so, the Trudeau government has reached "moderate livelihood" agreements with three bands — one in Quebec and two in New Brunswick.

Federal Minister of Fisheries Bernadette Jordan said earlier this month that another rights and reconciliation agreement, as they are known, is near in New Brunswick, but that there are no deals close in Nova Scotia, despite optimism earlier this year that an agreement would be reached.

Offline JMT

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2020, 10:16:42 am »
"moderate living" remains broadly undefined through 2 decades+ of assorted governments.

The fault for that doesn't rest with the Mi'kmaq.

Offline waldo

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2020, 12:23:46 pm »
The fault for that doesn't rest with the Mi'kmaq.

tripartite negotiations... 3 participant bodies. For whatever reasons it appears the negotiations between Canada, Nova Scotia and the Mi'kmaq have not progressed (with formal updates, notifications, etc..) beyond 2010



the waldo's crack research team hasn't been able to find details of past/ongoing negotiations to suggest status... or to presumptuously assign... fault.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2020, 12:30:15 pm »
tripartite negotiations... 3 participant bodies. For whatever reasons it appears the negotiations between Canada, Nova Scotia and the Mi'kmaq have not progressed (with formal updates, notifications, etc..) beyond 2010

the waldo's crack research team hasn't been able to find details of past/ongoing negotiations to suggest status... or to presumptuously assign... fault.

Here is my guess, based on years of experience with similar groups, of what is happening.

The government is scared of making a decision and kicks the can down the road.
The indigenous folks don’t want ANY restrictions or regulation.
The commercial harvesters want it all for themselves.

But regardless of all that, domestic terrorism because you’re not getting your way can’t be tolerated.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2020, 12:46:46 pm »
More damage by the domestic terrorists on the east coast. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/lobster-facility-nova-scotia-fire-1.5765665

The lobster pound was completely destroyed by fire early Saturday. The blaze broke out at one of two facilities raided by commercial fishermen earlier this week protesting the 'moderate livelihood' fishery launched by Sipekne'katik First Nation last month. Mi'kmaw fishers were storing their catches at the facilities. (Taryn Grant/CBC)
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Offline MH

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2020, 02:42:24 pm »
More damage by the domestic terrorists on the east coast. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/lobster-facility-nova-scotia-fire-1.5765665

The lobster pound was completely destroyed by fire early Saturday. The blaze broke out at one of two facilities raided by commercial fishermen earlier this week protesting the 'moderate livelihood' fishery launched by Sipekne'katik First Nation last month. Mi'kmaw fishers were storing their catches at the facilities. (Taryn Grant/CBC)

#1 story on CBC right now...

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2020, 03:01:47 pm »
There’s a big fight between the legal commercial lobster fishery and the other legal commercial lobster fishery that involves indigenous fishers.

I understand that commercial lobstermen are concerned about their livelihood (aren’t the Mi’kmaw fishermen trying to earn a livelihood too?), but this is getting close to domestic terrorism...   raiding legally caught lobsters, torching vehicles....

Well first off, it's obvious the violence can't be tolerated, and the RCMP didn't do their jobs.  This is domestic terrorism.  This is the result of a breakdown in democracy, where voices are not being heard because the federal government isn't listening nor doing anything about it.  And so the commercial fishers take the law into their own hands, out of rage and frustration.

This is the same thing that happened in the US with the race riots.  It is domestic terrorism there too.  Because people aren't being listened to by the government, and so people become frustrated and angry and take the law into their own hands when the government won't act.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2020, 03:17:49 pm »
Here is my guess, based on years of experience with similar groups, of what is happening.

The government is scared of making a decision and kicks the can down the road.
The indigenous folks don’t want ANY restrictions or regulation.
The commercial harvesters want it all for themselves.

The first is correct.  They're cowards, the gov isn't doing their job.  It's a disservice to both groups, and has now caused conflict.

I think the last 2 may be slight exaggerations, or applicable to some but not all.  The indigenous want the right to fish, but at least the reasonable ones don't want to harvest all the lobster during mating season so there's few left in future years.  The commercial harvesters don't want that either.

The indigenous fishers get to start early.  They want lots of lobsters before the commercial guys start catching a lot of them.  The commercial fishers are PO'd because the indigenous are scooping a lot of them up early, making the commercial fishers lose out AND it also hurts the health of the industry since the indigenous are catching a bunch of the pregnant/spawning lobsters during spawn season when they aren't allowed to fish.  The commercial guys then yell "hey this isn't fair!", and then try and contact the gov, and they won't even respond.  And then they get fed up and get violent.

You get these disagreements when there's 2 different sets of rules for 2 different groups and then one thinks the other is being treated better than they are.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline the_squid

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2020, 03:37:11 pm »
You get these disagreements when there's 2 different sets of rules for 2 different groups and then one thinks the other is being treated better than they are.

One is a right, the other is a privilege, so of course there are “different rules”.   However, the right is to a “modest living”, while the commercial privilege doesn’t restrict how much money one can make from their catch.

The solution is to take capacity out of the commercial side to ensure the right while maintaining conservation and sustainability.  And if you take enough capacity out, you can compensate for any issues with mortality on spawning and soft lobsters that might occur from the Mi’kmaw fishery.

The only politician with the cajones to call this domestic terrorism has been Jaghmeet Singh.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2020, 03:49:42 pm »
One is a right, the other is a privilege, so of course there are “different rules”.   However, the right is to a “modest living”, while the commercial privilege doesn’t restrict how much money one can make from their catch.

The solution is to take capacity out of the commercial side to ensure the right while maintaining conservation and sustainability.  And if you take enough capacity out, you can compensate for any issues with mortality on spawning and soft lobsters that might occur from the Mi’kmaw fishery.

The only politician with the cajones to call this domestic terrorism has been Jaghmeet Singh.

I'm no expert on all their rules and how much they each catch etc.  We can all read some news articles, it doesn't make us experts.  Both the commercial catchers and the indigenous need to sit down with the gov at the table and sort it out so everyone's needs are met.  Not everyone's wants will be met, which is called compromise.  These 2 guys are doing it the right way:

https://www.facebook.com/510806916/videos/10157806074871917/
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019