Author Topic: Violence on the east coast  (Read 233 times)

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2020, 11:56:33 pm »
Well, if we want to keep existing as a country, we’d better find a way to accept reality.

I agree.  Those laws aren't going to change.  The crux of the issue is the politicians who won't deal with it.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2020, 11:59:00 pm »
It’s literally not a conservation concern. Experts from the region and on the issue have already weighed in.

I know that much of the crux of the issue is economic competition, but these indigenous and white commercial lobster catchers mention the conservation issues:

https://www.facebook.com/510806916/videos/10157806074871917/
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline JMT

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2020, 08:52:42 am »
I know that much of the crux of the issue is economic competition, but these indigenous and white commercial lobster catchers mention the conservation issues:

https://www.facebook.com/510806916/videos/10157806074871917/

Did you read the BBC article I posted?

Offline MH

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2020, 09:09:55 am »
I know that much of the crux of the issue is economic competition, but these indigenous and white commercial lobster catchers mention the conservation issues:

https://www.facebook.com/510806916/videos/10157806074871917/

I'm not reading anything from the natives or the non-natives on this but waiting for an in-depth discussion of the issues.   

Anyone have anything good ?
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2020, 12:33:34 pm »
Nice straw man.

The net across the entire river is an example of how we can't rely on some particular aboriginals to be the stewards of our environment in B.C. in this case.
I suspect that other areas or provinces will have similar examples of greed that can't continue to be allowed to be so destructive.

As for the straw man, that's the best argument there is for the behaviour we can't continue to condone.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2020, 12:41:15 pm »
And these different sets of rules have worked out horrendously bad and have created the main schisms in this country throughout its entire existence going back to when Europeans first arrived.

Both rules and laws too. But I sense that those who aren't understanding that are not very well informed. That is, on the overall problems and not just on this isolated incident.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline JMT

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2020, 01:08:01 pm »
Both rules and laws too. But I sense that those who aren't understanding that are not very well informed. That is, on the overall problems and not just on this isolated incident.

Glossing over the reality of indigenous title is a good place to start the misinformation.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2020, 01:40:26 pm »
Glossing over the reality of indigenous title is a good place to start the misinformation.

I personally don't see anything to gain by glossing over the fact that Canada's courts have consistently upheld indigineous titles. But I see some hope in the fact that two sets of laws must somehow coexist together.

And so I'll go back to my example of the gillnet strung across the entire river and say that their indigenous titles doesn't give them the right to wipe out endangered salmon runs for profit. Especially when it's being done on the faked excuse of it being done in the name of their food fishery.

What is your dog in this fight? Do you not understand that what I'm saying is completely true and is happening right now on some B.C. rivers?

It's certainly my opinion that anybody who supports this willful rape of the environment must be motivated by more profit and greed.

I have to keep my comments to my local issue that I can claim to understand very well. If that's off-topic for you as a general discussion then so be it, we'll be done.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2020, 02:24:16 pm »
I personally don't see anything to gain by glossing over the fact that Canada's courts have consistently upheld indigineous titles. But I see some hope in the fact that two sets of laws must somehow coexist together.

And so I'll go back to my example of the gillnet strung across the entire river and say that their indigenous titles doesn't give them the right to wipe out endangered salmon runs for profit. Especially when it's being done on the faked excuse of it being done in the name of their food fishery.

What is your dog in this fight? Do you not understand that what I'm saying is completely true and is happening right now on some B.C. rivers?

It's certainly my opinion that anybody who supports this willful rape of the environment must be motivated by more profit and greed.

I have to keep my comments to my local issue that I can claim to understand very well. If that's off-topic for you as a general discussion then so be it, we'll be done.

What you’re talking about is a straw-man and has absolutely zero to do with the topic of this thread.  Individual cases of groups behaving badly can be found everywhere.   It has no bearing on whether or not the east coast nations have commercial fishing rights on lobsters and the violence being perpetrated by some commercial lobstermen.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2020, 02:40:08 pm »
What you’re talking about is a straw-man and has absolutely zero to do with the topic of this thread.  Individual cases of groups behaving badly can be found everywhere.   It has no bearing on whether or not the east coast nations have commercial fishing rights on lobsters and the violence being perpetrated by some commercial lobstermen.

That which I'm talking about isn't a strawman but I had already told JMT that I had to confine my comments to my example that I am qualified to discuss here. If you or he don't wish to discuss my example or take it into consideration then that's fine with me. I'll let it go if nobody else is interested.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline MH

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2020, 03:05:45 pm »
I don't understand why I got a 'dumb' for my post, squid ?

I only get surface-level points from the articles I have read on Global, CBC, and APTN.

-Treaty rights were upheld
-Nova Scotian fishers are angry and some are doing violence
-Depot got burned down
-Police aren't doing much
-Small number of natives fishing, restricted by the treaty itself
-NS Fishers concerned about environmental impact


Offline eyeball

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2020, 03:28:24 pm »
This particular nation has a right to a “moderate living”.   If this makes too many commercial harvesters, the feds can buy out the non-indigenous commercial lobstermen.
Yes but first they need to drive the cost of the buy-out down, starting with driving the value of limited-entry commercial-licences down. Its why taxi owners don't like new un-licenced entrants.

DFO are experts at keeping fishermen divided and at odds with one another, especially where the intent is to cause public opinion to sour against whoever it is that's no longer in Ottawa's good graces. This is how natives were displaced in the first place after all.

Of course the very last thing DFO and Ottawa care about are the lobsters.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2020, 03:45:07 pm »
The fault for that doesn't rest with the Mi'kmaq.
No, it rests entirely with Ottawa and of course Canadians who fall for the impression that if anyone is at fault it's probably those greedy angry commercial fishermen.

Out on the LaPerouse Bank this summer a growing fleet of indigenous fishermen with licences issued by their nation were catching 400 - 500 salmon a day. The shrinking fleet of non-indigenous fishermen that our nation licences were fishing right alongside them and were only able to catch 15 or so a day.  The reason is that the former fleet is pretty much unrestricted in the type of gear that's allowed and of course they can keep every species of salmon they can hook. Non-indigenous are, probably by rights, only allowed one type of gear and one can only keep one species of salmon which is probably more than the greedy bastards deserve.

Just as well that years of similar treatment by our nation has left them so worn out and beaten down they couldn't resist if they wanted too.  Having been there themselves not so long ago I'm pretty sure a lot of the native guys actually feel sorry for them.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2020, 04:04:32 pm »
Ottawa is responsible for almost 3 thousand commercial lobster licences.  They're worth up to a million dollars and increasing. Probably driven in part by speculators hoping for a buy-out. Do the math.

The lobster are as doomed as salmon, letting too much money chase them is even more dangerous than letting too many boats go after them.

Offline wilber

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Re: Violence on the east coast
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2020, 04:52:05 pm »
Allowing resale of licenses seems to be a real problem with managed systems, we see the same thing with supply management quotas. The licenses and quota become commodities in themselves, sometimes worth more than the commodity or service they are intended to control.
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