Author Topic: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad  (Read 2351 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2017, 03:46:05 pm »
The problem is X does not equal Y, nor Z nor A, B, nor C. You want to flip things around and mix and match, but that violates the context of the grievances.

Think about it this way, A teacher sees a kid who has no coat in the winter and finds out that his single mother lost her job and couldn't afford one. She was embarrassed to turn for help. The teacher buys the kid a coat. Another kid finds out. He's from a well to do family and has a really nice jacket already. However, he stomps his feet and complains that ALL the kids should get a free coat if the teacher is going to give one to the first kid. After all, it's only fair, and if she doesn't give everyone a free coat then she's discriminating against the other students.

Again, there's the test of reasonableness. The rich kid complaining is not reasonable. I ignore unreasonable complaints. Why shouldn't society? A guy complaining that he feels uncomfortable having police marching in a parade is not being reasonable - especially when there are lots of uniformed cops along the parade route anyway. In fact, would you even hold a gay pride parade without police assistance? Without police blocking the roads with sand trucks and on the alert for suicide bombers and the like?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2017, 05:13:36 pm »
What level of public support do you imagine BLM has in the  community?

I have no idea.

Quote
You can't eliminate the test of reasonableness in assessing grievances.

Ok, but you can't make that the only test of whether to even listen, because of a think called subjectivity.

 
Quote
Look, if you say that police resort to the use of firearms too easily I consider that to be a reasonable complaint. I'm on record stating their training is grossly inadequate and that both training and instructions should be greatly altered so they have other means of disarming people with weapons, and know how to talk a situation down without resorting to violence at all. The death of Robert Dziekanski shows just how little time and patience police put into trying to convince people to calm down. And that's by training, not racism.

I think we should have a discussion about whether the politics are at all viable and finish that one before we assess the validity of the complaint.  I may not even have anything to say on the second question.
 

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2017, 05:15:27 pm »
Your freedom ends where it violates mine.

I answered your question - what gives them the right to make demands.

Quote
Nope. If you use force to stop people...

We're back to the question of politics.
 

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2017, 11:50:01 am »

Ok, but you can't make that the only test of whether to even listen, because of a think called subjectivity.

I understand that 'reasonable' can be subjective, but it's not like it can't be established or it wouldn't play a part in any number of laws which depend on whether a person acted reasonably, given circumstances. Besides, you have to listen before you can judge the demands reasonable or unreasonable.

Quote

I think we should have a discussion about whether the politics are at all viable

Reasonable is not a political judgement. BLM is not Pride. They are different organizations with different goals and different memberships. BLM has no more a right to demand Pride agree with them on something than it does in demanding a Chinese festival or the Toronto Public Library agree with them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2017, 11:51:26 am »
I answered your question - what gives them the right to make demands.

Force, apparently.

I'm not moving, so until you do as I say your parade goes nowhere, bud.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2017, 12:13:47 pm »
I understand that 'reasonable' can be subjective, but it's not like it can't be established or it wouldn't play a part in any number of laws which depend on whether a person acted reasonably, given circumstances. Besides, you have to listen before you can judge the demands reasonable or unreasonable.

You are taking it back to the legal system, which is understandable as the system works for you.  Or does it ?  Do you trust the HRC to treat you fairly ?

At a certain point, the problems with the system evoke a human reaction which take the discussion to a different level, right or wrong. 

Quote
Reasonable is not a political judgement.

You have to look at your own subjectivity to understand that it is absolutely political.  White people fight tooth and nail to ensure that the system doesn't treat them unfairly and they are listened to, for the most part. 

Quote
BLM has no more a right to demand Pride agree with them on something than it does in demanding a Chinese festival or the Toronto Public Library agree with them.

They have a right to ask for whatever they want.

Force, apparently.

I'm not moving, so until you do as I say your parade goes nowhere, bud.

Force happens.  Non-violent is an iteration/evolution of violent protest. 

Once there was 'Taxation without representation' ... and war ... and now we are so lucky as to have non-violent protest to call attention to things like this.
 


Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2017, 03:03:37 pm »
You are taking it back to the legal system, which is understandable as the system works for you.


I'm only mentioning the legal system because it revolves around fine-points of interpretation of words and acts. Reasonable would not be included if it couldn't be defined according to community standards.

Quote
You have to look at your own subjectivity to understand that it is absolutely political.  White people fight tooth and nail to ensure that the system doesn't treat them unfairly and they are listened to, for the most part.

Everyone fights to ensure the system treats them fairly. But why single out White people? Society in generally seeks fairness, and, for the most part, achieves it.

Quote
Force happens.  Non-violent is an iteration/evolution of violent protest.

But it's only non-violent if the other party surrenders. What would happen if BLM tried to block a parade by Trump supporters and there were no police there? We both know the answer to that one.   

Quote
Once there was 'Taxation without representation' ... and war ... and now we are so lucky as to have non-violent protest to call attention to things like this.

Things like what? Black criminals being treated badly by police? My sympathy is lacking. I have seen video after video of alleged police violence against Blacks. A few are unquestionably wrong. But I have seen only a single one where a Black person, acting reasonably, obeying the law, responding to the requests of police, has been shot. Chris Rocks' advice still holds in almost all cases.


"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2017, 03:30:40 pm »


I'm only mentioning the legal system because it revolves around fine-points of interpretation of words and acts. Reasonable would not be included if it couldn't be defined according to community standards.

Ok.

Quote
Everyone fights to ensure the system treats them fairly. But why single out White people? Society in generally seeks fairness, and, for the most part, achieves it.

Especially for white people, like you and me.  That's my point.  You look at the justice system as the arbiter of questions because it mostly works... for you.

Quote
But it's only non-violent if the other party surrenders.

No, there are lots of outcomes.  It's not binary.  What happened to Occupy Wall Street ?  It just stopped.
 
Quote
My sympathy is lacking.

Yes, that's clear and I'm not trying to change your mind.  But your solution is still not workable, regardless of how you feel about it:

My proposed 'solution' is clearly to ignore it.

The difference between you and me is that I want to work within a process, whether I believe in the matter at hand or not.  I didn't agree with the court ruling on Trinity University but you have to take the wins with the losses and trust in dialogue above all.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2017, 02:51:52 pm »
Ok.

Especially for white people, like you and me.  That's my point.  You look at the justice system as the arbiter of questions because it mostly works... for you.

I dare you to find a single point in time where I've ever said ANYTHING good about our legal system.

Quote
No, there are lots of outcomes.  It's not binary.

No, it IS binary. Either they move, or there's no parade. Which leaves another binary decision. Either you do what they say so they agree to move, or you force them to move.

Quote
What happened to Occupy Wall Street ?  It just stopped.

They were repeatedly arrested and broken up by the police.
 
Quote
Yes, that's clear and I'm not trying to change your mind.  But your solution is still not workable, regardless of how you feel about it:

My proposed 'solution' is clearly to ignore it.

Absent evidence of disproportionate violence committed by police on Blacks (disproportionate to their interaction with police, nor their numbers in the population) I see no need to take action.

Quote
The difference between you and me is that I want to work within a process, whether I believe in the matter at hand or not.  I didn't agree with the court ruling on Trinity University but you have to take the wins with the losses and trust in dialogue above all.

I'm fine with dialogue, even if the head of BLM Toronto is clearly a racist, but I'm not for punishing police because so many Blacks are involved in criminality and run afoul of... the police.

Police misuse of authority and the use of violence against innocent people infuriates me. I just seldom see it. In the closest case to me, geographically speaking, which has got BLM upset,  the death of a Somali man, I literally could not care less. He was sexually harassing women, fought off those who tried to hold him for police, ran from police, and resisted arrest. The SUI has laid what I regard as a politically influenced charge against an Ottawa cop for manslaughter. I have little doubt he'll be found not guilty by a jury.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2017, 03:25:53 pm »
I dare you to find a single point in time where I've ever said ANYTHING good about our legal system.

Fair enough.  From memory, you seemed to be taking the concerns of BLM to the arena of past legal decisions or at least I thought.  If you don't think the legal system is good, then BLM doesn't either.

Quote
No, it IS binary. Either they move, or there's no parade. Which leaves another binary decision. Either you do what they say so they agree to move, or you force them to move.

No - YOU said the choices are:
1) Violence
2) Surrender
 
There are lots of other outcomes.  OWS eventually gave up as their demands were untenable and they just stopped.  At least that's how I remember it, ie. no large beat-downs, no concessions.  There was no, or not enough, political will behind their protest.
 
The rest of your post reiterates your opinion on this, which is separate from mine.

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5033
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2019, 11:03:42 pm »
Bumping this thread to post this opinion piece:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/canada-coin-1.5100177

The mint is issuing a new dollar coin to celebrate the 50th of anniversary of the decriminalization of homosexuality in 1969.  The only problem is, the decriminalization of homosexuality in 1969 is a big fat myth.

The author explains that the supposed "reform" just made it legal for consenting adults to have homosexual contact in private. But in practice, they always could; the state had no ability to police that sort of thing anyway.


Quote
While the 1969 debates in the House of Commons focused on whether homosexuality was a dangerous threat or a medical disease, members from all political parties agreed on one thing: the reform accomplished nothing.

Ralliement créditiste MP Bernard Dumont said, "When two homosexuals want to commit such acts privately, nobody will denounce them and no sentence will be passed on them, I cannot see why are being led to believe that this bill is going to change anything." Progressive Conservative Eldon Woolliams agreed: "Two consenting adults are not going to go out and report what they do in private to the law officers."

NDP MP David Orlikow quoted an academic study of gross indecency in Toronto and found there were no charges against two adults in private, concluding "I do not believe this change in the Criminal Code will really do very much."

Even the governing Liberals admitted this. MP Gilles Marceau stated, "Gross indecency is still a criminal act which may be punishable by five years in jail. And the amendment which will enable consenting adults to do certain acts in private only confirms the inviolability of private life."

Justice Minister John Turner was more emphatic, stating that the reform does not promote homosexuality, "it does not advocate such acts, it does not popularize such acts, it does not even legalize this kind of conduct."

When the reforms became law in August 1969, the headline in the Toronto Star read, "State leaves bedrooms, but little has changed." A morality squad detective with more than 18 years experience was interviewed and could not recall a single arrest for two consenting adults having sex in private.

Homosexuality was not "decriminalized" because homosexuals were still targeted using other laws.

Quote
Not only did charges for gross indecency continue after 1969, they escalated. In one example from 1976, two young men were arrested at 5 a.m. in an Edmonton park because they were kissing in their parked vehicle. Over an eight-month period in 1982, a group of gay activists attended the Old City Hall courthouse in Toronto and tracked 74 charges of gross indecency against adults for having gay sex.

Charges also escalated for other 19th century Criminal Code relics that were untouched in 1969, including indecent acts, vagrancy, obscenity, and the bawdy-house law. From 1968 to 2004, more than 1,300 men were charged under the bawdy-house law for being in a gay bar or bathhouse. They could not claim protection using the 1969 reform because more than two people were present in these instances, even if they were behind closed doors.

The author is a historian who has studied the Toronto bath-house raids of the 1980s, and points out that far from decriminalizing homosexuality... police harassment of gay people actually increased in the following decade.

Quote
So why is the Canadian Mint releasing a coin commemorating an event that led to the mass criminalization of LGBTQ2 communities in the decades after 1969? Whom does this commemoration serve?

It does not serve lesbians, who were not captured by these Criminal Code provisions. Nor does it serve Two-Spirit and Indigenous communities, who in 1969 mobilized against the White Paper, which called for the destruction of their sovereignty and treaty rights.

It does not serve the gay and lesbian community, which, in 1971 gathered on Parliament Hill for their first national protest organized in direct opposition to the 1969 reform. They called for an actual decriminalization and the repeal of all "indecency" laws. This commemoration also ignores LGBTQ2 members of the military and civil service, who continued to be purged until as recent as 1992.

Instead, this commemoration celebrates the so-called accomplishment of a Liberal named Trudeau, a myth that is literally going on our dollar.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8715
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #86 on: May 06, 2019, 12:59:54 am »
Bumping this thread to post this opinion piece:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/canada-coin-1.5100177

The mint is issuing a new dollar coin to celebrate the 50th of anniversary of the decriminalization of homosexuality in 1969.  The only problem is, the decriminalization of homosexuality in 1969 is a big fat myth.

Quote
Instead, this commemoration celebrates the so-called accomplishment of a Liberal named Trudeau, a myth that is literally going on our dollar.

historian is he? ;D I've read a number of articles describing the coin/commemoration - PM {Pierre} gets a relatively minor note in passing given his i1967-69 initiative as Justice Minister. The Canadian Mint provides history and a timeline that certainly speaks to a shared accomplishment involving many persons/organizations... and doesn't even mention Pierre Trudeau by name/ministry!

clearly, this opinion writer feels "slighted":
Quote from: York University historian Tom Hooper
There were many gains gained by the gay community before this, but this coin gives all the credit to Pierre Trudeau and 1969. It should be about our community, not the federal government


Finance Minister Bill Morneau unveiled the loonie... with an accompanying tweet that speaks of reflecting historically on "steps TOWARDS equality" while emphasizing, "the work still to do"


does the opinion writer actually think his inaccurate/biased spiel helps his agenda/cause?

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5630
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #87 on: May 06, 2019, 03:22:14 am »
It’s a well designed loonie, even if based on fictional events. 

Like Like x 2 Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5033
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #88 on: May 06, 2019, 10:00:55 am »
historian is he? ;D

You wish to argue that he isn't?

I've read a number of articles describing the coin/commemoration - PM {Pierre} gets a relatively minor note in passing given his i1967-69 initiative as Justice Minister. The Canadian Mint provides history and a timeline that certainly speaks to a shared accomplishment involving many persons/organizations... and doesn't even mention Pierre Trudeau by name/ministry!

clearly, this opinion writer feels "slighted": 

Finance Minister Bill Morneau unveiled the loonie... with an accompanying tweet that speaks of reflecting historically on "steps TOWARDS equality" while emphasizing, "the work still to do"

They made a coin that says Equality 1969 - 2019 on it. But far from providing equality, the changes in 1969 were actually pretty much meaningless as Mr Hooper's article, and the mass arrests of the following years, demonstrate.


does the opinion writer actually think his inaccurate/biased spiel helps his agenda/cause?

What inaccuracy?

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8715
Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2019, 11:21:38 am »
You wish to argue that he isn't?

They made a coin that says Equality 1969 - 2019 on it. But far from providing equality, the changes in 1969 were actually pretty much meaningless as Mr Hooper's article, and the mass arrests of the following years, demonstrate.

What inaccuracy?

definitely an agenda driven "historian of Toronto bathhouse raids" ...crafting his own reality; a reality that has him place an over-emphasis on the initial role played by former PM Pierre Trudeau (as then Justice Minister) - an emphasis the Canadian Mint certainly doesn't place... an emphasis I haven't read in any articles that speak to the commemoration/coin. Your favoured "historian of Toronto bathhouse raids", apparently, believes his stated "community" is being denied its due recognition - something I've certainly not read/heard anywhere. Your favoured "historian of Toronto bathhouse raids", apparently, wants to take the story away from accomplishments and, in effect, within the media/public work to negate & deny everything positive that has occurred during the period. Again, the Canadian Mint clearly includes notice on "the communities" efforts/participation in its timeline link I provided earlier.

I certainly haven't read anything suggesting the commemoration/coin marks an Equality point; rather, as I read/interpret, it speaks to an event to commemorate 50 years since Canada took the first step towards decriminalizing homosexuality. In your typical scrambling manner you reference an extended period, 1969 - 2019, and then zero in on the starting year 1969 to speak to it in terms of, as you say, "far from providing equality".

waldo pro-tip: a 50 year period of commemoration presumes upon recognizing the totality of the period in question/review - not placing an ignorant agenda driven emphasis on the starting year of the commemoration period. C'mon kimmy, don't deny the LGBTTQQIAAP community its rightful due to commemorate... to celebrate... positive gains made during the period.