Author Topic: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad  (Read 2366 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2017, 05:34:51 am »
There seems to be a judgment made that Megan Murphy and other women who say they're feminists but aren't down with showering with chicks with dicks are "trans-exclusionary radicals".   
But the message seems to be that you cisgendered white women are the establishment now, the privileged, and you need to give up your hard-won victories to make way for the underprivileged.

Judgment made where ?  Not on that thread.  The term was defined but not used to name-call, no way.  TERF is another label like SJW and snowflake.  As a moderator I used to call it an IAN: insult against no one, a strawman..


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I don't think Sir John's point is to pursue an argument of "black people commit more crime". 

I think his point is that the argument "(group X) should be excluded from the parade because they make (group Y) feel uncomfortable" falls apart pretty quickly when you start experimenting with different values of X and Y.
 

SJ talked about the double standard of stereotyping.  That you can't use it sometimes but that people can use it against police etc.  Whether or not he wants to pursue that particular argument, it bears examination in the context of what is and isn't allowed when it comes to stereotyping.

As to whether cops make people feel a certain way or not, you can actually do something about that a lot more easily than you can change a racial or religious group... because we PAY cops to be cops.  So if citizens protest and tell them they can't card black people anymore, then they won't be able to do it.

That's a case of Group Y being intimidated by Group X, so they legally shoot them and get off.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2017, 10:24:40 am »

I have never heard anyone who called something 'boring' described as a snob. 

Really? You've never heard of those people who roll their eyes and give a world-weary sigh whenever television is discussed, and then says something like "I don't watch television" in a snobby voice indicating he is far too much the intellectual to enjoy such trivial and unsophisticated pursuits?

Maybe you were out of the room when the 'snob' term was used.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2017, 10:28:45 am »
Anyway... those of us who can deal with context don't freak out so much about a little generalizing, but we don't find it to be mind-blowingly brilliant when somebody posts that black people commit more crime.  It's not a breath of fresh air to post stuff like that....

No, it's uhm, context. When the major complaint is that there are more police-involved shootings with blacks than their statistical numbers would call for it's more than proper to bring into the discussion that this group's over-involvement in violent/street crime inevitably brings them into greater conflict with policing.

Likewise to suggest some individuals from this community might feel discomfort around police is true. It's also true to say some individuals might feel discomfort around Black men. The reply to both such individuals should be "deal with it", not "aww, mommy make all your fears go away, my precious".
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2017, 10:39:44 am »
Really? You've never heard of those people who roll their eyes and give a world-weary sigh whenever television is discussed, and then says something like "I don't watch television" in a snobby voice indicating he is far too much the intellectual to enjoy such trivial and unsophisticated pursuits?

Maybe you were out of the room when the 'snob' term was used.

Where is the word 'boring' in this plaint?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2017, 10:43:21 am »
No, it's uhm, context. When the major complaint is that there are more police-involved shootings with blacks than their statistical numbers would call for it's more than proper to bring into the discussion that this group's over-involvement in violent/street crime inevitably brings them into greater conflict with policing.

Likewise to suggest some individuals from this community might feel discomfort around police is true. It's also true to say some individuals might feel discomfort around Black men. The reply to both such individuals should be "deal with it", not "aww, mommy make all your fears go away, my precious".

I have never seen it necessary to deny facts.  But you jump from talking about flawed discussion to what you say the solution 'should be, which is an error in logic.

Offline Hal 9000

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2017, 11:10:42 am »
I'm sure the practical value is very close to zero, but I think acknowledging that an injustice was done, and acknowledging the government's role in it, is important.

I also think the police participation in Toronto's Pride Parade is important, for more or less the same reason. As I understand it, police antagonism of Toronto's gay community was a foundational cause of  Toronto's gay rights marches that spurred gay rights activism across Canada.  Police participation now kind of says "never again" and "we're on your side now, bro."

As for the MMIW...  I have a strong hunch that by far the biggest threat to aboriginal women is aboriginal men.  If the inquiry reaches that finding... is that going to make people happy?


 -k


Well, I guess introductions are not necessary, therefore no need to wade in.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/70-per-cent-of-murdered-aboriginal-women-killed-by-indigenous-men-rcmp-confirms/article23868927/

Anyway, of course it's FN's men doing the killing of FN's women...FN's men are killing other FN's men too...and FN's women can be pretty violent as well.  Every study that has been done has come to that conclusion, the problem is; that's not the info that people want.  That's not what JT or Gord Downey want to hear, but it's not only fact, it's logical sense.  Most killing, regardless of race, is perpetuated by members of that persons own race.  In that study, it shows that 70% of FN"s women are killed by FN"s men, it also shows that 64% are killed by people they know.  I haven't checked, but these numbers are probably in line with most other murders or a certain race.  Frankly, I'm surprised that the %'s aren't higher, but then it occurred to me that in my experiance, many Fn's, because of their lower financial standings, hang out with lower income white men - meaning that any killing of FN's women is more of a "class" problem, than a racial one.  It is family or community violence, it's hitchhikers being killed by scumbags, it's prostitutes, it's crimes of alcohol...or passion, it's trying to cover up a ****...it's many things, but it's not racism. 

IOW, there aren't any "middle or upper class, white, racist men" going around killing FN"s women.     

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2017, 11:23:00 am »
I have never seen it necessary to deny facts.  But you jump from talking about flawed discussion to what you say the solution 'should be, which is an error in logic.

My proposed 'solution' is clearly to ignore it. Everyone is uncomfortable in various situations and for various reasons at various times. It's not up to society at large to pat their heads and give them a hug and make their (unreasonable) anxieties go away.

I mean, what exactly is the legitimate concern? That uniformed police who are marching (there are always uniformed police at events on duty anyway) will stop and frisk Black guys who are also marching? That they'll beat them up and shoot them? I mean, seriously?  Did minorities stay away from Canada Day celebrations due to the enormous police presence? Nope. Did they stay away from Pride because of uniformed cops on crowd control and there to protect 'sodomites' from crazy Muslims? Nope. The demand to not allow uniformed cops to march wasn't due to discomfort but simply BLMs way of getting other groups to join them in their condemnation of and disdain for police.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2017, 11:43:13 am »
They have a list of demands.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2017, 02:35:58 pm »
They have a list of demands.

And what gives them the right to make demands?

"Nice little parade you've got here. I understand it took you all year to organize? Well, it's not going anywhere until you do as I say."
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2017, 12:47:49 pm »

I think his point is that the argument "(group X) should be excluded from the parade because they make (group Y) feel uncomfortable" falls apart pretty quickly when you start experimenting with different values of X and Y.

 -k
The problem is X does not equal Y, nor Z nor A, B, nor C. You want to flip things around and mix and match, but that violates the context of the grievances.

Think about it this way, A teacher sees a kid who has no coat in the winter and finds out that his single mother lost her job and couldn't afford one. She was embarrassed to turn for help. The teacher buys the kid a coat. Another kid finds out. He's from a well to do family and has a really nice jacket already. However, he stomps his feet and complains that ALL the kids should get a free coat if the teacher is going to give one to the first kid. After all, it's only fair, and if she doesn't give everyone a free coat then she's discriminating against the other students.

That's what it sounds like when you want to mix and match variables.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2017, 01:57:28 pm »

IOW, there aren't any "middle or upper class, white, racist men" going around killing FN"s women.     

Ok.  What do we do with that ?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2017, 02:01:02 pm »
My proposed 'solution' is clearly to ignore it. Everyone is uncomfortable in various situations and for various reasons at various times. It's not up to society at large to pat their heads and give them a hug and make their (unreasonable) anxieties go away.

Ok, well with respect your solution doesn't seem at all politically viable to me.

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I mean, what exactly is the legitimate concern?

Calling for legitimacy of concerns is not part of the political process.  Lots of people point out that there is an irrational fear of terrorism, however we all still have to live in a society that fears being attacked so it's reasonable to expect that we all will make sacrifices. 

You may see leftist posters putting out information that fewer people die from terrorist attacks than barber pole accidents or whatever... it's no comfort.


Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2017, 02:02:45 pm »
And what gives them the right to make demands?

Freedom of self-expression.

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"Nice little parade you've got here. I understand it took you all year to organize? Well, it's not going anywhere until you do as I say."

Peaceful protest.  We should at least listen to what is being said.  The fact that things have come to that point indicates that people are upset, right ?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2017, 03:40:27 pm »
Ok, well with respect your solution doesn't seem at all politically viable to me.

What level of public support do you imagine BLM has in the  community?

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Calling for legitimacy of concerns is not part of the political process.

You can't eliminate the test of reasonableness in assessing grievances. Look, if you say that police resort to the use of firearms too easily I consider that to be a reasonable complaint. I'm on record stating their training is grossly inadequate and that both training and instructions should be greatly altered so they have other means of disarming people with weapons, and know how to talk a situation down without resorting to violence at all. The death of Robert Dziekanski shows just how little time and patience police put into trying to convince people to calm down. And that's by training, not racism.

But most of what BLM demands  is not reasonable, and it's even less reasonable to try and achieve any of those aims by forcing another group to join them in 'shunning' police.

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Lots of people point out that there is an irrational fear of terrorism, however we all still have to live in a society that fears being attacked so it's reasonable to expect that we all will make sacrifices.

The elected government can require that you make sacrifices. Some independent, unaccountable private group has no right to force you to make sacrifices for them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2017, 03:44:06 pm »
Freedom of self-expression.

Your freedom ends where it violates mine.

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Peaceful protest.

Nope. If you use force to stop people from doing what they want to do, if you use force to block them from going where they want to go, that is, by its very nature, violent. If I stand in your path and block you from moving you're not going to think sweet thoughts about what a peaceful guy I am.

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We should at least listen to what is being said.  The fact that things have come to that point indicates that people are upset, right ?

I'm upset at my cable company. Should I have the right to block your car and demand you listen to my demands? You might say, hey, it's got nothing to do with me, and you'd be right. But I'm upset. So does that mean you have to stop and listen and then sign whatever paper I put in front of you?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum