Author Topic: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad  (Read 2346 times)

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2017, 11:43:11 am »

They're now saying that Pride actually belongs to the black community because trans blacks started the Stonewall Riots in New York. Ok, why not disrupt Caribana?   

 -k

Police aren't participating in Caribana parade.  Which makes sense. I wouldn't want to be a policewoman on a float at Caribana.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 11:45:35 am by BC_cheque »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2017, 11:53:58 am »
Maybe I don't fully appreciate how awful the Toronto police are to black people. Maybe I would feel differently if I knew the whole story.  I'd certainly have no complaint about excluding a racist organization from Pride events, I just don't view the Toronto police as a racist organization.

The complaints against Toronto police are identical to the complaints against police in the US and arise from the fairly predictable human and bureaucratic response to lawbreaking, particularly violent lawbreaking coming from the Black community in both areas (and where I live).  In New York city, for example, the somewhat startling statistic released by police this year is that Blacks and Hispanics were responsible for 97% of all gun violence in the city. Whites represent about 6.5% of suspects. In ****, whites represent 10% of suspects. Toronto keeps no such statistics, but in the past, remarks made have shown that most street violence, particularly gun violence is of a similar nature. The last time I heard any stats was when a Divisional inspector told a neighborhood group that Blacks made up 5% of the population in the division but were responsible for 95% of the street crime.

The reaction of police is fairly predictable. They step up patrols in areas of high crime, which in most cases is areas where non-whites live. They focus their attention on young men, principally young Black men, since most of the extreme violence comes from that community. Law abiding black men resent being constantly stopped and questioned by police and push back, which draws a heavy handed response. When a cop stops you and asks a question he doesn't like to be told to screw off, regardless of what colour you are. While not defending the actions of police misuse of authority, especially a number of (IMO) unjustified police shootings, a similar feature of virtually all of them is the shooting victim not obeying police instructions/resisting arrest/threatening police/running from police. BLM encourages such behaviour, which in essence encourages police violence in response.

Do I need to point out most of the victims of murder/**** and robbery are also non-White, and that the police are trying to protect them? When police slack off as they've done in Chicago, does that make the Black community feel safer? I don't see it.

One thing I can say with some certainty, the root of the problem is the preponderance of crime, not skin colour.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2017, 11:55:34 am »
Police aren't participating in Caribana parade.  Which makes sense. I wouldn't want to be a policewoman on a float at Caribana.

Or, apparently, an openly gay woman.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2017, 12:37:23 pm »
Feminism went into several different ideologies, but the underlying thought is equality of men and women. 

Likewise, BLM is bound to veer into different branches too but it was founded on the grievance of police brutality against blacks.  That's the thing all BLM around the world share in common.

I don't have an opinion one way or another whether BLM is doing the right thing protesting Pride Parades but I don't think the comparison of why Caribana and not Pride isn't really apt just because of certain interpretations of BLM.

That's not what BLM represents universally whereas protesting a police participation in a parade does represent BLM as far as their principle message goes.


Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2017, 01:07:42 pm »
Personally I'm not sure why they decided to pick on Pride. 

Between Pride, Caribana and Santa this makes the most sense.

Pride at least is about oppressed people, so they might think to have a better chance of success there and they did.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2017, 01:23:02 pm »
Between Pride, Caribana and Santa this makes the most sense.

Pride at least is about oppressed people, so they might think to have a better chance of success there and they did.

By oppressing and intimidating them?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2017, 01:57:02 pm »
Protesting isn't oppressing somebody, it's inconveniencing them.

If you want to have a strawman argument, go back to MLW I'm not interested....

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2017, 04:04:05 pm »
Protesting isn't oppressing somebody, it's inconveniencing them.

If you want to have a strawman argument, go back to MLW I'm not interested....

If you want to get snarky any time anyone disagrees with you or offends your sense of  political correctness, maybe you should go back to MLW, where you can just suspend them.

When you block a freaking parade, forcing it to stop dead in its tracks, and refuse to move, and make demands to avoid violence that is moist definitely oppressing and intimidating people.

It is using the threat of violence to get your way. I don't approve of the threat of violence even if I agree with the ends, which in this case I don't anyway.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2017, 04:31:26 pm »
I am not offended, I just find the point obtuse.  I was explaining to Kimmy why they want to target Pride is all.

Who exactly cares if protesters stop a parade, shoot a pack of babies or destroy the city ?  I don't.  Not here.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2017, 05:11:00 pm »
I am not offended, I just find the point obtuse.  I was explaining to Kimmy why they want to target Pride is all.

Who exactly cares if protesters stop a parade, shoot a pack of babies or destroy the city ?  I don't.  Not here.

Your point confuses me when you bring in shooting babies and destroying a city. I would presume the answer to the question is nearly everyone.

The pride parade isn't my parade, but people have volunteered their time and worked on this thing for months. Many, many others have come out to see it, to express their support. I appreciate their efforts and know their time is of value. To have some activists basically take over the event, block it, and demand their own opinions on participation be observed or else refuse to let the parade go on is, to me, utterly crass and outrageous. And yes, it was intimidation, because the Pride organizers were left with little choice but to obey, or have police forcibly remove the protestors. Given they were all a bunch of anguished progressives that really wasn't a choice at all.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2017, 05:38:24 pm »
Your point confuses me when you bring in shooting babies and destroying a city. I would presume the answer to the question is nearly everyone.

Really.  Well I guess we're not on the same page, then.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2017, 10:35:23 pm »
Feminism went into several different ideologies, but the underlying thought is equality of men and women. 

Likewise, BLM is bound to veer into different branches too but it was founded on the grievance of police brutality against blacks.  That's the thing all BLM around the world share in common.

I don't have an opinion one way or another whether BLM is doing the right thing protesting Pride Parades but I don't think the comparison of why Caribana and not Pride isn't really apt just because of certain interpretations of BLM.

That's not what BLM represents universally whereas protesting a police participation in a parade does represent BLM as far as their principle message goes.

BLM-TO says their duty is to make black gay people welcome at Pride...  do they not have a similar duty to black gay people when it comes to making them welcome at Caribana?

BLM-TO presented Pride with numerous demands that had nothing at all to do with the police so clearly they don't feel their mandate is limited to protesting the police.  Many of BLM-TO's demands centered around providing more funding and more space for gay black performers and artists at Pride. Have they ever asked Caribana for more space for gay black performers?  Considering Caribana's history with bringing Jamaican dancehall bands that sing about killing homos, and considering the Caribbean community's notorious homophobia, I kind of doubt Caribana is exactly living up to BLM-TO's standards for making gay blacks welcome...

To me it seems like they picked Pride because it's an easy target, and creates the appearance that their big talk of being great allies is self-serving.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2017, 10:39:35 pm »
Between this and the Body Blitz thread, I'm honestly feeling a little put off and alienated.  In the space of about two weeks I've gone from being an ardent advocate for LGBT rights and a member of the community, to being a privileged white cisgendered TERF. I guess I'm out of the "movement".

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2017, 10:40:59 pm »
Do you know any trans people ?

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2017, 10:46:48 pm »
No, I don't.  I often wear men's cologne and sometimes men's dress shirts... I'm the most trans person I know.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City