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Author Topic: Abolish political parties?  (Read 2961 times)

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Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #180 on: May 13, 2019, 06:58:15 pm »
Quote from: Granny on May 12, 2019, 09:52:45 pm
That's how our parliamentary system is supposed to work - Parties cooperating on common goals that benefit all of us.
This one-party-rules-all nonsense has to go.

I know I'm not Canadian, but it seems that, no matter what, all democratic governments carry within them the insidious seed of the potential for majority rule to turn into a tyranny of the majority. Maybe there is no way around that in any democracy?

Out of curiosity, how much power does the Speaker of the Commons have? Is he/she also the PM's poodle?

Also, you remember how Thatcher was deposed by her party MPs in 1990. Could that happen in Canada? or are modern Canadian PMs too well entrenched for that to happen in Ottawa? Both governments use the Westminster system but no two democracies are perfectly alike.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 07:01:56 pm by SuperColinBlow »
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #181 on: May 13, 2019, 07:01:03 pm »
Quote from: SuperColinBlow on May 13, 2019, 06:58:15 pm
Is he/she also the PM's poodle?

Only Andrew Scheer ever fit that bill.
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Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #182 on: May 13, 2019, 07:02:58 pm »
Quote from: ?Impact on May 13, 2019, 07:01:03 pm
Only Andrew Scheer ever fit that bill.

What do you mean?
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Offline Granny

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #183 on: May 13, 2019, 07:28:39 pm »
Quote from: SuperColinBlow on May 13, 2019, 06:58:15 pm
I know I'm not Canadian, but it seems that, no matter what, all democratic governments carry within them the insidious seed of the potential for majority rule to turn into a tyranny of the majority. Maybe there is no way around that in any democracy?
There is no way around the constant struggle against the pressure to pervert democracy.
That's on us.
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Out of curiosity, how much power does the Speaker of the Commons have? Is he/she also the PM's poodle?
The Speaker is from the Opposition party.
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Also, you remember how Thatcher was deposed by her party MPs in 1990. Could that happen in Canada? or are modern Canadian PMs too well entrenched for that to happen in Ottawa? Both governments use the Westminster system but no two democracies are perfectly alike.
Not in Parliament.
Indirectly by influencing party members to vote against him at a leadership convention.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 01:26:44 am by Granny »
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Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #184 on: May 13, 2019, 11:48:13 pm »
And how easy is it to do that?

Why is the speaker from the opposition?
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Offline TimG

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #185 on: May 14, 2019, 12:00:41 am »
Quote from: SuperColinBlow on May 13, 2019, 06:58:15 pm
Also, you remember how Thatcher was deposed by her party MPs in 1990. Could that happen in Canada?
The problem in Canada is party constitutions strip away the right of MPs to choose the PM by requiring that a leader be replaced at a party convention. A simple act of parliament that prohibited such restrictions would restore the power of MPs by given them leverage over the PM. Of course, instead of addressing the problem with relatively simple fixes many are obsessed with making wholesale changes to the system which would likely make things much worse by entrenching the power of parties over MPs in the design of the system.

The speaker is elected by MPs. When there is a narrow majority the party in power does not like to lose a vote so the speaker comes from the opposition. The job comes with higher pay an benefits so it is attractive to MPs.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 12:03:49 am by TimG »
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Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #186 on: May 16, 2019, 09:17:49 am »
That's interesting. Sounds like that's the only thing that provides a check on the PM's awesome power. But how powerful is the speaker vis a vis the cabinet/PM?
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Offline queenmandy85

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #187 on: May 16, 2019, 10:40:13 am »
A major check on the power of the Prime Minister is the desire to et re-elected. Also, generally, we tend to elect people od good character. They are not saints, thank God, but they try to do the right thing, or at least not be tyrants. The most important feature that protects democracy is to not take politics too seriously.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #188 on: May 16, 2019, 01:43:48 pm »
Quote from: SuperColinBlow on May 16, 2019, 09:17:49 am
That's interesting. Sounds like that's the only thing that provides a check on the PM's awesome power. But how powerful is the speaker vis a vis the cabinet/PM?

Outside of Parliament, the speaker has no power.
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Offline Granny

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #189 on: May 16, 2019, 02:30:02 pm »
Quote from: queenmandy85 on May 16, 2019, 10:40:13 am
A major check on the power of the Prime Minister is the desire to et re-elected.
Not good enough.
A powerful PM (ie with a fake majority) can do a lot of damage to the country in 4 years.
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Also, generally, we tend to elect people od good character. They are not saints, thank God, but they try to do the right thing, or at least not be tyrants.
Simply not true.
Try to do the right thing for their political donors, perhaps. We've just seen the tyrannical behaviour of a PM when confronted sbout that kind of corruption.
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The most important feature that protects democracy is to not take politics too seriously.

That's the apathy that has allowed the corruption to flourish.
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Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #190 on: May 17, 2019, 03:17:59 am »
Quote from: wilber on May 16, 2019, 01:43:48 pm
Outside of Parliament, the speaker has no power.

Yes, I guessed that. I mean like, on the floor of the House, what can the Speaker do whilst presiding?
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Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #191 on: May 17, 2019, 03:20:06 am »
Quote from: Granny on May 16, 2019, 02:30:02 pm
Not good enough.
A powerful PM (ie with a fake majority) can do a lot of damage to the country in 4 years.Simply not true.
Try to do the right thing for their political donors, perhaps. We've just seen the tyrannical behaviour of a PM when confronted sbout that kind of corruption.
That's the apathy that has allowed the corruption to flourish.

Granny, without being Canadian I think you're right. Not specifically about Canada, since I don't live/vote there, but in general you're right about elections being not enough. Elections don't guarantee freedom or good behavior on the part of the winner of said elections. They help, but you likely need other things in place too.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 03:24:20 am by SuperColinBlow »
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #192 on: May 17, 2019, 05:57:44 am »
Quote from: SuperColinBlow on May 17, 2019, 03:17:59 am
Yes, I guessed that. I mean like, on the floor of the House, what can the Speaker do whilst presiding?

Think of them like a referee in football.  Ostensibly, no actual power if they are doing their jobs fairly.  But really they can influence debate. 

Then again, who follows question period.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #193 on: May 24, 2019, 12:38:18 pm »
Quote from: SuperColinBlow on May 13, 2019, 11:48:13 pm
Why is the speaker from the opposition?
The speaker isn't always from the opposition. For example, the current speaker is Geoff Regan, who is a Liberal.

The speaker of the house is vote on by the house of commons. It used to be sort of a rubber-stamp procedure (whomever the party in charge wanted, got elected). But in the 80s it changed to a secret ballot.

It might have been that the opposition in a minority government might try to select an opposition MP as a way to help control the government. But if its a majority government, the party in charge will probably still manage to get one of its own as speaker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_of_the_House_of_Commons_(Canada)
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Abolish political parties?
« Reply #194 on: May 24, 2019, 12:51:08 pm »
Quote from: SuperColinBlow on May 13, 2019, 06:58:15 pm
Also, you remember how Thatcher was deposed by her party MPs in 1990. Could that happen in Canada? or are modern Canadian PMs too well entrenched for that to happen in Ottawa? Both governments use the Westminster system but no two democracies are perfectly alike.
There is certainly a lot of entrenchment involved.

MPs can (in theory) always vote any way they chose at any time. (The prime minister does have the ability to kick people out of caucus and keep them from running for the party in future elections, so voting against the party is a rather significant step, and not one to be taken lightly.)

If a prime minister IS found to be abusing power, it would be hoped that MPs from their own party would vote against the party in a "confidence motion". (Basically a special resolution, and/or any bill that involved finances.) This would mean they would be 'kicked out' of power, and the Governor General would either call an election, or invite one of the other parties a chance to form the government.

I think the big difference between the Canadian and U.K. systems is that Canada tends to enforce party discipline a lot more often (i.e. "vote the way the rest of the party is, or we kick you out"), whereas the U.K. gives its MPs more flexibility to vote how they want (unless its on a matter of confidence, and/or related to a campaign promise.)
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