Author Topic: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad  (Read 925 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2017, 03:07:49 pm »
Well, there are a lot of angry people out there.

I don't know what the list of BLM demands was, but I would wager that carding was a major problem for them.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 11:52:17 pm »
Well, there are a lot of angry people out there.

If they keep assaulting 60 year old ladies, they're going to meet some angry people in return.

I don't know what the list of BLM demands was, but I would wager that carding was a major problem for them.

They had a bunch of demands regarding more funding and more representation for minority groups at Pride, which fine, fair enough.  But regarding police, they'll never be satisfied. 



I notice that the Black Leopard Movement crashed the Pride Parade today, despite not being registered to attend, just to prove the point that they don't really give a crap and they know no rules apply to them.  If Pride organizers had any spine they'd decide that this stunt renders last year's agreement null and void, but they don't, so they won't.


 -k
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Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2017, 06:38:36 am »
Here are the demands:

https://blacklivesmatter.ca/demands/

I am sorry to say that I wasn't up to date on these, but then again I am not in the LGBTQ+ community, just an ally.  My feeling is that the two main paths to group conflict are violence and dialogue.  Protests are a crossroads, and if the groups want to lead to dialogue then the first step is to know the issues.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2017, 08:31:35 am »
They don't want to ban police from participating as members of the LGBTQ community. They don't want them participating in uniform because that uniform is a symbol that to many people signifies brutality, violence, and oppression. It's a reasonable request given current circumstances with police in North America. You remember Rodney King and the subsequent riots? Asking that cops don't wear their uniforms in the pride parade because many people of colour don't feel safe around them is a hell of a lot better than destroying a city in protest to disgusting police behaviour.

Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2017, 09:30:31 am »
Yes, this is an important distinction.

Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2017, 11:30:54 am »
They don't want to ban police from participating as members of the LGBTQ community. They don't want them participating in uniform because that uniform is a symbol that to many people signifies brutality, violence, and oppression. It's a reasonable request given current circumstances with police in North America. You remember Rodney King and the subsequent riots? Asking that cops don't wear their uniforms in the pride parade because many people of colour don't feel safe around them is a hell of a lot better than destroying a city in protest to disgusting police behaviour.

If this were a BLM march, I'd see your point.  It's not though.  Many people are having uniformed officers as a point of reconciliation and change between the police and the gay community gst they previously marginalized.  I think it really undermines that to give in to demands from a group of people whom the day is not primarily about in the face of opposition to demands form many members of the gay community, who the day is actually about.

Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2017, 12:31:51 pm »
My understanding was that last year's protesters were from both communities.

Also, I feel that any discussion of whether the protest/result had value needs to acknowledge the demands on some level.  Otherwise, it's the same refrain that protesting shouldn't happen.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2017, 12:39:37 am »
Also, I feel that any discussion of whether the protest/result had value needs to acknowledge the demands on some level.  Otherwise, it's the same refrain that protesting shouldn't happen.

The demands were certainly acknowledged. They've been agreed to. And aside from the demand to end police participation, most of them weren't even controversial.  Does "acknowledgment" necessarily mean "agreement"?

Maybe I don't fully appreciate how awful the Toronto police are to black people. Maybe I would feel differently if I knew the whole story.  I'd certainly have no complaint about excluding a racist organization from Pride events, I just don't view the Toronto police as a racist organization. If it were the Baltimore police, I might feel differently, but maybe I am looking at the Toronto police through rose-colored glasses.  I'm under the impression that they're trying to engage positively with both the gay community and the black community. Maybe that doesn't match with the reality.

My understanding was that last year's protesters were from both communities.

Ah yes. "Intersectionality".    In today's super-competitive victimhood sweepstakes, being just one thing isn't enough. You need "intersectionality"!

This reminds me of a Daily Show skit in the 2004 US presidential election, in which a reporter (perhaps Stephen Colbert) talks with a Demographically Diversetm panel of voters. He talks to them, addressing them as "Jew", "Senior", "Female", "College Student", "Asian", and "Black Man -- oh wait, you're Black AND Christian! You're TWO things!"

 -k
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Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2017, 06:32:54 am »
I mean anybody discussing the issue needs to acknowledge the demands.  I see too many comments on the 680 News page for example that don't say whether there's any validity to their grievances.  In effect, that just says 'don't protest my event' which isn't productive dialogue.

Pride did themselves in by agreeing to not allowing uniformed police - they agreed to it on the spot - and so had to live up to their agreement.  It seems that some of the demands have been met, so maybe next year will be different.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2017, 11:14:03 am »
If this were a BLM march, I'd see your point.  It's not though.  Many people are having uniformed officers as a point of reconciliation and change between the police and the gay community gst they previously marginalized.  I think it really undermines that to give in to demands from a group of people whom the day is not primarily about in the face of opposition to demands form many members of the gay community, who the day is actually about.
So what you're saying is black protesters should shut up and know their place?

Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2017, 11:27:42 am »
BLM should only protest BLM marches.

Protests shouldn't bother people, otherwise we'd have to listen to what they're saying.

Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2017, 07:16:37 pm »
So what you're saying is black protesters should shut up and know their place?

I'm actually fine with BLM protesting pride.  I'm more upset with Pride giving in to the demands of BLM when it wasn't really their deal.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2017, 09:59:19 am »
BLM should only protest BLM marches.

Protests shouldn't bother people, otherwise we'd have to listen to what they're saying.

Personally I'm not sure why they decided to pick on Pride.  It seems like Pride has been unfairly singled out for some reason.  Native protesters attempting to set up a teepee on Parliament Hill makes sense to me.  BLM disrupting Pride I don't get.  The message seems to be "Our marginalized group hasn't received the respect we deserve, so we're going to take it out on your marginalized group's annual event."

They're now saying that Pride has been taken over by privileged white gays who don't care about black people.  So why not disrupt the Christmas parade? Surely the Christmas parade has also been taken over by privileged whites.

They're now saying that Pride actually belongs to the black community because trans blacks started the Stonewall Riots in New York. Ok, why not disrupt Caribana?   They say that as members of both the black and gay community they should feel accepted at Pride.  Ok, as members of both the black and gay community they should also feel accepted at Caribana. But the writer I linked to earlier indicated that as a gay black man he feels unsafe at Caribana due to overt and aggressive homophobia in the Caribbean community.  If BLM-TO are such great allies to the gay community, why haven't they made a peep about that?

 -k
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2017, 11:29:20 am »
They don't want to ban police from participating as members of the LGBTQ community. They don't want them participating in uniform because that uniform is a symbol that to many people signifies brutality, violence, and oppression.

What if some people didn't want the participation of Black men because they felt intimidated and endangered by groups of Black men? Would it be okay to ban them?

Any argument which can be made against police because of individual misuse of authority by members of police services can be made against Black men for the disproportionate amount of violence perpetrated by individual members of the Black community. The same could be said of Native men in other cities like Winnipeg.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2017, 11:30:38 am »
Personally I'm not sure why they decided to pick on Pride.  It seems like Pride has been unfairly singled out for some reason.

Once you show you can be bullied and intimidated, certain groups - especially those which make a habit of bullying and intimidation - will keep coming back to the well again and again.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum