Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 30701 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1905 on: January 06, 2020, 01:23:57 pm »
Perhaps you forgot the $13.7 billion your buddy Harper gave to GM. It's all about jobs, and I think we are getting bored with continious flogging a dead horse. But carry on.

Trying to compare the GMC bailout to the SNC-Lavalin affair is astoundingly dumb even by your lofty standards.  Go play with a ball or something.

 -k
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1906 on: January 07, 2020, 12:39:30 am »
If the prosecution has no case, you don't spent years lobbying the government to create a DPA law, then demand a DPA once the law is established.

If the prosecution has no case, you don't accept a guilty plea.

If the prosecution has no case, you say "You have no case, we will fight these charges in court."

SNC-Lavalin had 280 million reasons to reject this plea agreement. So once again:

    If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?
    If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?
    If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

Posted in big boldface letters so that you can't miss the question and everybody else can see that you keep ducking it.

$280 million in fines is a hell of a lot more impacting than a "not guilty" verdict!  Why didn't they fight the charges in court? Huh? Huh?

ok, I've let you have enough rope now!  ;D Notwithstanding I've never offered comment on whether there was 'ACase', how are you expecting anyone from the general public to know just 'WhatCase' the PPSC had... or didn't have? As I recall, the only thing I've stated is that legal analysts suggested PPSC might have difficulty in proving... WhateverCaseTheyMightHave! And why? As I stated, because of the datedness of the alleged crimes, the foreign element, the death/absence of many of the key players {allegedly} involved, etc..

what I've also stated, several times, is that the Director of PPSC was quite emphatic in stipulating the key reason behind her decision not to offer a DPA - as she stated, her principal reason for not offering a DPA to SNC-L was due to the, “nature and gravity” of SNC-Lavalin‘s alleged corruption in Libya. That's quite precise... specific... defined! It reads like the PPSC sure envisioned they had TheGoods to support conviction - must have been quite TheCase to render said decision, hey member kimmy?

what you can't answer, what you keep deflecting away from, is the simple question: if PPSC had TheGoods, had TheCase, why did it withdraw all 6 charges of fraud and corruption (3 and 3), and instead had SNC-Lavalin accept a guilty plea on one charge of fraud over $5000? If only you could focus and offer an answer - if only!  ;D

you're also under some strange and unfounded understanding that a defendant is fully aware of what evidence... what proof... what case, a prosecution has to support a presumed conviction. Of course, as you're also clearly unaware, a typical key stipulation of DPA's has a defendant admit quilt and assist prosecution in providing all manner of available information to align with and prove/support said guilt!
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1907 on: January 07, 2020, 01:01:26 am »
SNC being banned from bidding on government contracts would have just meant that other firms win the bids instead.  The talented professionals of SNC would have found work at other firms. People change jobs all the time. Companies fold or relocate all the time. The impact of SNC moving its headquarters from Montreal was never a significant issue for the national economy. The impact of SNC moving its headquarters on Montreal-area Liberal MPs was the real threat they were trying to stave off.  Can't give the BQ more ammo!

yes, you are naive... and it reflects upon your junior/neophyte real-world job experience. Expertise with Squirrel POS software only goes so far, hey!  ;D Point in fact: it was the Canadian Press that released an internal SNC-L document that SNC-L presented to PPSC in the fall of 2018 in which, absent a remediation agreement, it would split the company in two, move its offices south of the border and chop its Canadian workforce to 3,500 from 8,700 before eventually shuttering its domestic operations. Whether you personally choose to believe the intent within that document or not is moot... it's the type of information a government has to consider as a "possible outcome".

and how cavalier you are with the employment... the lives... of people who might lose their jobs/livelihood. As I said, your naivete shines through! 

Not only was undue pressure on JWR not warranted, it was also unethical, and as this result proves: completely unnecessary!   A fair agreement was reached that punishes SNC Lavalin while allowing them to continue as a viable enterprise, all without direction from AG Lametti.    All the PMO got from meddling in the prosecution of this affair was egg on its face.

you're quite the pro in repeatedly, post after post, presuming upon an outcome few, if any, thought was coming. I mean, c'mon; again... no DPA was offered given the, “nature and gravity” of SNC-Lavalin‘s alleged corruption in Libya!  ;D

surprised you're still on St. Jody's truthSquad!

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1908 on: January 14, 2020, 02:25:17 am »
yes, you are naive... and it reflects upon your junior/neophyte real-world job experience. Expertise with Squirrel POS software only goes so far, hey!

You're quite the POS yourself!   Yes, like many Canadians, especially women, who weren't born into wealth, I've worked with the mighty Squirrel in the past.  That you see this as something worthy of mockery suggests that you, like your blackface-wearing idol, perhaps "come from a place of privilege" that "comes with a massive blind spot".

  ;D Point in fact: it was the Canadian Press that released an internal SNC-L document that SNC-L presented to PPSC in the fall of 2018 in which, absent a remediation agreement, it would split the company in two, move its offices south of the border and chop its Canadian workforce to 3,500 from 8,700 before eventually shuttering its domestic operations. Whether you personally choose to believe the intent within that document or not is moot... it's the type of information a government has to consider as a "possible outcome". 

The big threat facing Canada is that SNC might phase out 5200 Canadian jobs?
As you noted earlier in this thread with this handy screenshot you clipped from SNC's website, SNC has already turfed far more jobs from Canada in the past 6 years, with nary a ripple to the greater Canadian economy:



Phasing out 5200 more jobs doesn't seem like that big of a threat after they've already phased out 11500 since 2013.  The BC interior has probably lost 5200 forest-sector jobs in the past 6 months.



and how cavalier you are with the employment... the lives... of people who might lose their jobs/livelihood. As I said, your naivete shines through! 

My family has moved around the country for work numerous times, I moved myself, I've changed employment numerous times. Why should I care that other people have to as well?  This is a fact of life for many Canadians.


you're quite the pro in repeatedly, post after post, presuming upon an outcome few, if any, thought was coming. I mean, c'mon; again... no DPA was offered given the, “nature and gravity” of SNC-Lavalin‘s alleged corruption in Libya!  ;D

surprised you're still on St. Jody's truthSquad!

The "nature and gravity" of the crime disqualify them from a DPA.  As well, SNC is a repeat offender, that also disqualifies them from a DPA. Ms Roussel's decision is completely justifiable.   That the eventual plea agreement resulted in a settlement similar to what a DPA might have provided doesn't actually mean that SNC was ever eligible for a DPA.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1909 on: January 14, 2020, 02:45:09 am »
ok, I've let you have enough rope now!  ;D

While you go about patting yourself on the back for some feat of cleverness you imagine yourself to have performed, I have to once again point out that you've yet again failed to address the fundamental question of why SNC accepted this plea agreement.

Notwithstanding I've never offered comment on whether there was 'ACase', how are you expecting anyone from the general public to know just 'WhatCase' the PPSC had... or didn't have? As I recall, the only thing I've stated is that legal analysts suggested PPSC might have difficulty in proving... WhateverCaseTheyMightHave! And why? As I stated, because of the datedness of the alleged crimes, the foreign element, the death/absence of many of the key players {allegedly} involved, etc..

Gee, you make it sound like it would have been pretty easy of SNC to beat these charges in court! Why did SNC decide to plead guilty instead of just beating the charges in court?

SNC's lawyers are in a better position to evaluate the strength of the prosecution's case than anybody in the general public, or any outside legal analysts you care to cite.  The fact that SNC opted to plead guilty should tell you what you need to know about the prosecution's case.

what I've also stated, several times, is that the Director of PPSC was quite emphatic in stipulating the key reason behind her decision not to offer a DPA - as she stated, her principal reason for not offering a DPA to SNC-L was due to the, “nature and gravity” of SNC-Lavalin‘s alleged corruption in Libya. That's quite precise... specific... defined! It reads like the PPSC sure envisioned they had TheGoods to support conviction - must have been quite TheCase to render said decision, hey member kimmy?

what you can't answer, what you keep deflecting away from, is the simple question: if PPSC had TheGoods, had TheCase, why did it withdraw all 6 charges of fraud and corruption (3 and 3), and instead had SNC-Lavalin accept a guilty plea on one charge of fraud over $5000? If only you could focus and offer an answer - if only!  ;D

As I said previously, dropping some charges and/or agreeing to a lesser sentence is a common feature of a plea agreement. I'm not sure why this is so mystifying to you.

In the case of SNC, arriving at a sentence that punishes the company while avoiding the dreaded 10-year ban is an outcome that seems in the public interest, much like a sentence that allows an individual offender to serve his time on the weekend while continuing his day job.

Of course, as you're also clearly unaware, a typical key stipulation of DPA's has a defendant admit quilt and assist prosecution in providing all manner of available information to align with and prove/support said guilt!

What further information could SNC provide that would be of value at this point?  Are you proposing that there are yet more "rogue executives" out there that could be tried?

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1910 on: January 14, 2020, 04:24:25 am »
You're quite the POS yourself!   Yes, like many Canadians, especially women, who weren't born into wealth, I've worked with the mighty Squirrel in the past.  That you see this as something worthy of mockery suggests that you, like your blackface-wearing idol, perhaps "come from a place of privilege" that "comes with a massive blind spot".

do you feel mocked? Highlighting a significant facet of your employment history is simply a reference point to gauge the merit/basis of the strength naivete of your statements concerning job loss, impacts on livelihood, the practicalities of hundreds-to-thousand kilometer relocations, etc..

Phasing out 5200 more jobs doesn't seem like that big of a threat after they've already phased out 11500 since 2013.

purrrfect... you being one of the St. Jody truthTellers who scoffed at the various possible future job loss numbers being speculated on... but you're somehow accepting to SNC's own actual past job loss numbers that reflect upon internal remediation and restructuring efforts and their related financial impacts, notwithstanding losses related to investor uncertainty and the shuttering of their principal construction division. I'd call this yet another member kimmy "own-goal"!

My family has moved around the country for work numerous times, I moved myself, I've changed employment numerous times. Why should I care that other people have to as well?  This is a fact of life for many Canadians.

who cares if you care? Again, your naivete... and callousness simply reflects on your limited corporate attached job history - squirrelOn, hey!

The "nature and gravity" of the crime disqualify them from a DPA.  As well, SNC is a repeat offender, that also disqualifies them from a DPA. Ms Roussel's decision is completely justifiable.

no - your absolute "disqualifies" is not accurate; rather its just another discretionary decision factor to weigh within the greater whole (of a dozen plus other factors to consider):
=> whether the organization — or any of its representatives — was convicted of an offence or sanctioned by a regulatory body, or whether it entered into a previous remediation agreement or other settlement, in Canada or elsewhere, for similar conduct;
=> whether the organization — or any of its representatives — is alleged to have committed any other offences;

That the eventual plea agreement resulted in a settlement similar to what a DPA might have provided doesn't actually mean that SNC was ever eligible for a DPA.

never said it did! Point in fact, the plea-agreement is said to have realized LESS than what a offered/negotiated DPA was anticipated to realize.

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1911 on: January 14, 2020, 04:24:37 am »
While you go about patting yourself on the back for some feat of cleverness you imagine yourself to have performed, I have to once again point out that you've yet again failed to address the fundamental question of why SNC accepted this plea agreement.

you should try reading! I did respond to your nattering... after giving you enough rope to hang with! Again, SNC-L didn't set the plea-agreement terms... that's the prosecution doing so. Again, I expect SNC-L really liked that gift-horse particularly given the uncertainties of judicial process. The question you keep ignoring... that you keep running from is why did PPSC stay the half-dozen other fraud/corruption charges and settle on the single fraud over $5K charge? You know, considering PPSC stated the principal reason for not offering a DPA as the, "nature and gravity of the alleged corruption in Libya"... so grave, hey member kimmy - so grave!  ;D

Notwithstanding I've never offered comment on whether there was 'ACase', how are you expecting anyone from the general public to know just 'WhatCase' the PPSC had... or didn't have? As I recall, the only thing I've stated is that legal analysts suggested PPSC might have difficulty in proving... WhateverCaseTheyMightHave! And why? As I stated, because of the datedness of the alleged crimes, the foreign element, the death/absence of many of the key players {allegedly} involved, etc..
Gee, you make it sound like it would have been pretty easy of SNC to beat these charges in court! Why did SNC decide to plead guilty instead of just beating the charges in court?

SNC's lawyers are in a better position to evaluate the strength of the prosecution's case than anybody in the general public, or any outside legal analysts you care to cite.  The fact that SNC opted to plead guilty should tell you what you need to know about the prosecution's case.

geezaz, why are you having such comprehension difficulty? I've included my statement... that you quoted and replied to... replied to with this nonsense! I openly state I don't know the strength of theCase... which doesn't stop you from your total speculation. And again, answer the question... don't run away from it again; this question: why did PPSC stay the half-dozen other fraud/corruption charges and settle on the single fraud over $5K charge? You know, considering PPSC stated the principal reason for not offering a DPA as the, "nature and gravity of the alleged corruption in Libya"... so grave, hey member kimmy - so grave!

As I said previously, dropping some charges and/or agreeing to a lesser sentence is a common feature of a plea agreement. I'm not sure why this is so mystifying to you.

you're so full of shyte! For such a high-profile case (thanks St. Jody), PPSC sure backed down - yes? Dropping all but one charge! Giving a wrist-slap fine and an oversight regimen significantly reduced from what typical DPAs in other countries have brought forward. So grave, hey member kimmy - so grave!

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1912 on: January 22, 2020, 08:04:36 am »
Are people really still talking about this?

Not anywhere but internet forums full of trolls.
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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1913 on: January 22, 2020, 09:19:46 am »
Clearly the fact that Trudeau spends more on doughnuts than they cost at Tim Horton's proves that he's in fact, as stated, the 'crime minister'.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1914 on: January 22, 2020, 09:21:42 am »
Clearly the fact that Trudeau spends more on doughnuts than they cost at Tim Horton's proves that he's in fact, as stated, the 'crime minister'.
It's amazing, considering he's supporting a local business--you know, unlike Bev Oda and her $16 orange juice. Don't ever let Conservatives say they care about "small business."

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1915 on: February 01, 2020, 01:33:04 pm »
do you feel mocked? Highlighting a significant facet of your employment history is simply a reference point to gauge the merit/basis of the strength naivete 

of your statements concerning job loss, impacts on livelihood, the practicalities of hundreds-to-thousand kilometer relocations, etc..

the waldo: "these are bigly bigly issues!  A former waitress is not not equipped to understand all this complexity!"

also the waldo: "why do conservatives mock his work history?  What's wrong with regular people?  a drama teacher and snowboard instructor is completely qualified to be Prime Minister!"

purrrfect... you being one of the St. Jody truthTellers who scoffed at the various possible future job loss numbers being speculated on... but you're somehow accepting to SNC's own actual past job loss numbers that reflect upon internal remediation and restructuring efforts and their related financial impacts, notwithstanding losses related to investor uncertainty and the shuttering of their principal construction division. I'd call this yet another member kimmy "own-goal"!

Nonsense.  You've just run out of ways to try and spin the loss of a few thousand jobs as an economic catastrophe, given that SNC had already phased out twice as many jobs over the previous few years without any noticeable effect on the economy.

who cares if you care? Again, your naivete... and callousness simply reflects on your limited corporate attached job history - squirrelOn, hey!

My own family went through this in 2001 when Nortel was collapsing. Dad was laid off. We had to move. It was stressful.  Thousands of other technology workers in Ottawa were losing their jobs too at that time.  We survived.  Stuff happens. The world goes on.

The highly skilled professionals at SNC are far better equipped to move on to new jobs, if need be, than the thousands and thousands of blue collar workers being displaced in oil and forestry at this very moment.

I think all of us understand that the real reason that SNC was an emergency is not the number of workers impacted, or the effect on the overall economy, or their emotional well-being as they searched for new jobs.  The real reason SNC was an emergency is because of their postal code. 

no - your absolute "disqualifies" is not accurate; rather its just another discretionary decision factor to weigh within the greater whole (of a dozen plus other factors to consider):
=> whether the organization — or any of its representatives — was convicted of an offence or sanctioned by a regulatory body, or whether it entered into a previous remediation agreement or other settlement, in Canada or elsewhere, for similar conduct;
=> whether the organization — or any of its representatives — is alleged to have committed any other offences;

None of the factors really point to SNC being a good candidate for a DPA.

never said it did! Point in fact, the plea-agreement is said to have realized LESS than what a offered/negotiated DPA was anticipated to realize.

Cite?

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1916 on: February 01, 2020, 02:11:57 pm »
Remember when this was the scandal of all scandals?  Yeah....
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1917 on: February 12, 2020, 08:51:41 pm »
quite a 'climb-down' for St. Jody's sidekick - once a federal government Health Minister to a Queen'sU Health Sciences faculty dean - those that can... do; those that can't... teach/administer! Clearly siding with your BFF's 'truth telling' put an end to your political aspirations.


Online wilber

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1918 on: February 12, 2020, 09:54:57 pm »
What is Trudeau qualified to be dean of at one of the country's best universities?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1919 on: February 12, 2020, 10:10:52 pm »
 ;D it's a 'fine' school... but doesn't crack the top 10 listings of Canadian Universities.

so shocking to read your comeback targeting PM Trudeau? Member wilber, c'mon man - I didn't say Philpott wasn't qualified - did I? The point was to highlight the platform of national influence Philpott gave up - gave up to lap at the heels of JWR! Clearly she wanted to stay in politics but the people spoke... uhhh... voted!
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