Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 33007 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4796
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1890 on: January 05, 2020, 10:28:14 pm »
as I said, pure speculation pulled out of your azz! If you're not speculating, surely you can state why a plea-bargain agreement was struck... you can state why the PPSC reversed itself and stayed all but one of the many charges it had brought against SNC-L. It's heeelarious to read you attempting to leverage the result (plea bargain) outcome for your self-serving agenda...

Plea bargains are very common and dropping or reducing charges in exchange for guilty pleas is a common feature of most of them.

If the prosecution had no case, as you propose, then why did SNC accept a guilty plea and agree to $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC agree to a guilty plea that cost them $280 in fines? Why didn't they just say "see you in court!" and fight their case there? 

SNC has millions of dollars to spend on the best legal advice money can buy in this country... you're proposing that they could have saved $280 million if they had listened to some anonymous clown on the internet rather than to their expert legal advisors!

in any case, the problem with your revisionism is the waldo won't let it stand. Your "ethics" tag is simply you showcasing, once again, how willing you are to blindly accept St. Jody's "truth"... notwithstanding the numerous ethical breaches that JWR actually made - as in, for example, refusing to appear before the Senate Committee, refusing to properly allow information flow between departments, refusing to provide information to the Privy Clerk (hence cabinet)... and, of course, blatantly recording the Privy Clerk without his knowledge! St. Jody indeed  ;D

Yes, poor Mr Wernick... very unethical of Ms Wilson-Raybould to record him in the middle of doing something unethical.  His indignant huffing and puffing about having been defamed vanished rather quickly after JWR released that recording, as I recall.

As you continue to mock "St Jody's truth", let's keep in mind that she's still not allowed to tell her whole story due to cabinet cabinet confidentiality that St Justin refuses to waive, even as St Justin himself spreads his own self-serving "truth".

And let us recall that "St Justin's truth" has "evolved" many times during this affair.  From "I didn't discuss it with her" to "we discussed it, but I didn't tell her I wanted a particular outcome" to "no pressure was applied" to "no inappropriate pressure was applied" to "I will always fight for Canadian jobs!"


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8357
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1891 on: January 05, 2020, 10:41:37 pm »
c'mon - not that the waldo was counting but... wilberMath is hard! You pulled items from (at least) 3 of my posts and replied to them all within a single post. The ever conscientious & considerate waldo opted to pull your longish single post reply apart, rather than create something megaTooLong! The challenged member wilber, still suffering butthurt from yet another waldoWhoopin', sprang forward to whine/complain about the, count em... 5 single topic posts that I made in reply to your longish single post, itself your collective reply of, again (at least) 3 of my posts.

again, I'm quite enjoying seeing you unable to actually reply to the thread topic at hand... the latest plea-bargained "DPA-like" backpedal/retreat by PPSC. Reading you deflect and distract with your "wall-o-whine" is almost as sweet as seeing just where St. Jody has landed. You and she being truthTellinSista's, ya know!

The ďchallenged member WilberĒ can no longer be bothered wading through you bullshit to see if it contains anything worthwhile. There may be something there but your delivery is so off putting, it isnít worth the trouble. kimmy is dead on, no one is obligated to read your posts.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4796
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1892 on: January 05, 2020, 10:56:20 pm »
as you said, baseless speculation pulled out of YOUR AZZ!

No.  If I had written that before the plea agreement was reached, it would have been baseless speculation. But since I wrote it after the plea agreement was reached, it's merely remarking upon an observable fact:
 * AG Lametti says that the government was not involved in reaching the plea agreement between SNC and the public prosecution.
 * An agreement has been reached that all parties consider equitable.
THEREFORE: government involvement was not required to reach an equitable deal.

The Prime Minister himself said that if he'd known things would work out this well, he'd have acted much differently.

We now know how the case ended, and clearly SNC Lavalin has not gone up in flames in spite of failing to obtain a DPA.  They have not relocated, they have not received "the death penalty" of being barred from government contracts for 10 years, they have not laid off 9000 employees or however many it was that Gerald Butts told us would lose their jobs if the prosecution continued. 

First and foremost the outcome of all of this is proof that the PMO interference in the prosecution was completely unnecessary.  Trying to spin it as vindication for the PMO's shenanigans is absurd.


And, of course, nobody really thought 9000 people would lose their jobs.  Even the worst case was just some empty office space in Papineau. Those government contracts would continue without SNC, and the companies that won those contracts would need workers and suppliers.

What this was really about was Quebec votes.  "We can have the best policy in the world, but we need to be re-elected,"  as PMO henchman Mathieu Bouchard put it. He said out loud the part you're supposed to not say out loud. 


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6750
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1893 on: January 05, 2020, 10:58:45 pm »
Plea bargains are very common and dropping or reducing charges in exchange for guilty pleas is a common feature of most of them.

If the prosecution had no case, as you propose, then why did SNC accept a guilty plea and agree to $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC agree to a guilty plea that cost them $280 in fines? Why didn't they just say "see you in court!" and fight their case there? 

SNC has millions of dollars to spend on the best legal advice money can buy in this country... you're proposing that they could have saved $280 million if they had listened to some anonymous clown on the internet rather than to their expert legal advisors!

your deflect/distract routine doesn't explain what would push PPSC into a plea-bargain. If PPSC had the TheCase, had TheGoods, what conceivably could bring the plea-bargain forward, particularly in such a high-profile proceeding. Wait, what's that waldo... the plea-bargain was offered by PPSC the very day before SNC-L was to make its second submission in regards the "Abuse Of Process" proceeding. You know, the abuse of process that came to light as a part of the Justice Committee testimonies. Is that what caused PPSC to 'turn tail & run', hey member kimmy?  ;D Timing is just so coincidental - yes?

again, the Director of PPSC was so forceful in citing that her principal reason for not offering a DPA to SNC-L was due to, 'the ďnature and gravityĒ of SNC-LavalinĎs alleged corruption in Libya'. And yet, apparently, that "nature and gravity" couldn't stand the test of... actual court proceedings! Bottom-line: the plea-bargain realizes like/less than results that an offered/negotiated DPA could have... should have... realized. And no matter how hard you try to deflect/distract member kimmy, that bottom-line prevails.

Yes, poor Mr Wernick... very unethical of Ms Wilson-Raybould to record him in the middle of doing something unethical.  His indignant huffing and puffing about having been defamed vanished rather quickly after JWR released that recording, as I recall.

And let us recall that "St Justin's truth" has "evolved" many times during this affair.  From "I didn't discuss it with her" to "we discussed it, but I didn't tell her I wanted a particular outcome" to "no pressure was applied" to "no inappropriate pressure was applied" to "I will always fight for Canadian jobs!"

it was St. Jody's own tellinTruth that had her testify that no one... NO ONE... directed her. Clearly you have no qualms with St. Jody's stealth recording of a conversation she, effectively, led/scripted to her personal want. Notwithstanding the recording provides fodder for the subsequent legal analysis that states the Ethics guy Dion completely misinterpreted the part of the exchange he so hung his failed ruling on! Good job in ensuring there was a tape, hey St. Jody  ;D

As you continue to mock "St Jody's truth", let's keep in mind that she's still not allowed to tell her whole story due to cabinet cabinet confidentiality that St Justin refuses to waive, even as St Justin himself spreads his own self-serving "truth".

citation request

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4796
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1894 on: January 05, 2020, 10:59:15 pm »
again, I'm quite enjoying seeing you unable to actually reply to the thread topic at hand...

You have your replies. Now go back to Gerald and ask for some fresh talking points!  ;D ;D ;D

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
Funny Funny x 1 View List

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6750
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1895 on: January 05, 2020, 11:02:42 pm »
The ďchallenged member WilberĒ can no longer be bothered wading through you bullshit to see if it contains anything worthwhile. There may be something there but your delivery is so off putting, it isnít worth the trouble. kimmy is dead on, no one is obligated to read your posts.

you're just flummoxed that said delivery keeps bustin' your bubble. Just come back harder - keep tryin! Would you like the waldo to spot you a handicap... over and above the personal challenges you have to deal with?

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4796
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1896 on: January 05, 2020, 11:04:17 pm »
your deflect/distract routine doesn't explain what would push PPSC into a plea-bargain. If PPSC had the TheCase, had TheGoods, what conceivably could bring the plea-bargain forward, particularly in such a high-profile proceeding. Wait, what's that waldo... the plea-bargain was offered by PPSC the very day before SNC-L was to make its second submission in regards the "Abuse Of Process" proceeding. You know, the abuse of process that came to light as a part of the Justice Committee testimonies. Is that what caused PPSC to 'turn tail & run', hey member kimmy?  ;D Timing is just so coincidental - yes?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?



 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8563
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1897 on: January 05, 2020, 11:22:16 pm »
If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?



 -k

Perhaps you forgot the $13.7 billion your buddy Harper gave to GM. It's all about jobs, and I think we are getting bored with continious flogging a dead horse. But carry on.
Dumb Dumb x 2 View List

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6750
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1898 on: January 05, 2020, 11:28:11 pm »
We now know how the case ended, and clearly SNC Lavalin has not gone up in flames in spite of failing to obtain a DPA.  They have not relocated, they have not received "the death penalty" of being barred from government contracts for 10 years, they have not laid off 9000 employees or however many it was that Gerald Butts told us would lose their jobs if the prosecution continued.

clearly, you don't know what you're talking about. The unsettled impact on operations and investor confidence was significant - profit forecasts were revised 3 times in 2019; there was division restructuring and the judicial targeted construction division effectively stopped bidding on new contracts. Most certainly being banned from bidding on federal contracts would have had an impact on jobs. As a renowned international company, the option to shift 'some degree of operations' elsewhere was there... if the contract bid ban was impacting enough. It is somewhat telling that the plea-bargain ensures that SNC-L won't be banned from contract bidding... now why would PPSC include that lil' nugget, hey member kimmy?

First and foremost the outcome of all of this is proof that the PMO interference in the prosecution was completely unnecessary.  Trying to spin it as vindication for the PMO's shenanigans is absurd.

talk about YOUR SPIN! Wildly spinning the PPSC offered plea-bargain into your implication that "no undue pressure towards St. Jody" was warranted!  ;D

And, of course, nobody really thought 9000 people would lose their jobs.  Even the worst case was just some empty office space in Papineau. Those government contracts would continue without SNC, and the companies that won those contracts would need workers and suppliers.

What this was really about was Quebec votes.  "We can have the best policy in the world, but we need to be re-elected,"  as PMO henchman Mathieu Bouchard put it. He said out loud the part you're supposed to not say out loud.

I'll cut you some slack as its clear your limited job exposure/experience... your widget making cubicle world... hasn't given you an appreciation of what it might have meant for thousands of SNC-L employees to lose their jobs. To simply say that those employees could just get jobs with other bidding companies, shows you have no real grounding in the realities of large corporations operations and workforce management... notwithstanding said jobs could be hundreds-to-thousands of miles away. No biggee, hey member kimmy!

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6750
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1899 on: January 05, 2020, 11:36:18 pm »
You have your replies. Now go back to Gerald and ask for some fresh talking points!  ;D ;D ;D

was it asking you for the citation that has you runningAway?  ;D

your deflect/distract routine doesn't explain what would push PPSC into a plea-bargain. If PPSC had the TheCase, had TheGoods, what conceivably could bring the plea-bargain forward, particularly in such a high-profile proceeding. Wait, what's that waldo... the plea-bargain was offered by PPSC the very day before SNC-L was to make its second submission in regards the "Abuse Of Process" proceeding. You know, the abuse of process that came to light as a part of the Justice Committee testimonies. Is that what caused PPSC to 'turn tail & run', hey member kimmy?  ;D Timing is just so coincidental - yes?
If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

sweet to read you wiggin' out! Again, if TheCase/TheGoods were as strong as you imply, why would PPSC stay all but the one single charge... and effectively provide like/less than what a DPA would have realized?

by the by, are you really asking why SNC-L would agree to terms less impacting than what a DPA would have provided to them? Really, that's your ask?  ;D

Offline wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8357
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1900 on: January 06, 2020, 08:57:36 am »

No waldo, itís you. A case in point would be your response to squid about the junior gold medal game. Like squid, I hate it when games end in controversy and didnít understand why that wasnít a penalty. Well, you went and found the rule but instead of pointing it out and taking deserved credit for a good find, you had to be a complete A hole about it. Itís just tiresome and boring. If I read your stuff, I get as far as the first insult and tune out.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 09:14:11 am by wilber »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6750
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1901 on: January 06, 2020, 10:10:52 am »
member wilber - lighten up; you're too sensitive! As for the/my reply you speak of, I'll take any opportunity to take a dig at member squiggy's incessant dumbTag post assignments. And yes, it absolutely is trolling as the dumbTags are attached, repeatedly, without the member ever posting any verbiage... it's just an azzholey trolling move; one that other members have commented on... have taken exception to!
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8357
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1902 on: January 06, 2020, 11:21:38 am »
member wilber - lighten up; you're too sensitive! As for the/my reply you speak of, I'll take any opportunity to take a dig at member squiggy's incessant dumbTag post assignments. And yes, it absolutely is trolling as the dumbTags are attached, repeatedly, without the member ever posting any verbiage... it's just an azzholey trolling move; one that other members have commented on... have taken exception to!

Iím not sensitive, Iím old, grumpy and donít put up with the same kind of **** I did when I was younger. You may think you are a smart ass but you are just behaving like an Ahole and Iím not wasting my time humouring you.

PS
I donít know if it is his intent but squid has made the dumb tag redundant. When I see one now, I donít even bother to see who posted it.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 12:24:52 pm by wilber »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4796
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1903 on: January 06, 2020, 12:59:49 pm »
sweet to read you wiggin' out! Again, if TheCase/TheGoods were as strong as you imply, why would PPSC stay all but the one single charge...

The waldo clearly fancies himself something of a Perry Mason, but in truth he's more of a Lionel Hutz.  Try to this:

If the prosecution has no case, you don't spent years lobbying the government to create a DPA law, then demand a DPA once the law is established.

If the prosecution has no case, you don't accept a guilty plea.

If the prosecution has no case, you say "You have no case, we will fight these charges in court."

SNC-Lavalin had 280 million reasons to reject this plea agreement. So once again:

    If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?
    If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?
    If the prosecution had no case, why did SNC-Lavalin agree to plead guilty and pay $280 million in fines?

Posted in big boldface letters so that you can't miss the question and everybody else can see that you keep ducking it.

by the by, are you really asking why SNC-L would agree to terms less impacting than what a DPA would have provided to them? Really, that's your ask?  ;D

$280 million in fines is a hell of a lot more impacting than a "not guilty" verdict!  Why didn't they fight the charges in court? Huh? Huh?


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4796
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1904 on: January 06, 2020, 01:21:29 pm »
clearly, you don't know what you're talking about. The unsettled impact on operations and investor confidence was significant - profit forecasts were revised 3 times in 2019; there was division restructuring and the judicial targeted construction division effectively stopped bidding on new contracts. Most certainly being banned from bidding on federal contracts would have had an impact on jobs. As a renowned international company, the option to shift 'some degree of operations' elsewhere was there... if the contract bid ban was impacting enough. It is somewhat telling that the plea-bargain ensures that SNC-L won't be banned from contract bidding... now why would PPSC include that lil' nugget, hey member kimmy?

SNC being banned from bidding on government contracts would have just meant that other firms win the bids instead.  The talented professionals of SNC would have found work at other firms. People change jobs all the time. Companies fold or relocate all the time. The impact of SNC moving its headquarters from Montreal was never a significant issue for the national economy. The impact of SNC moving its headquarters on Montreal-area Liberal MPs was the real threat they were trying to stave off.  Can't give the BQ more ammo!

talk about YOUR SPIN! Wildly spinning the PPSC offered plea-bargain into your implication that "no undue pressure towards St. Jody" was warranted!  ;D

Not only was undue pressure on JWR not warranted, it was also unethical, and as this result proves: completely unnecessary!   A fair agreement was reached that punishes SNC Lavalin while allowing them to continue as a viable enterprise, all without direction from AG Lametti.    All the PMO got from meddling in the prosecution of this affair was egg on its face.

(for Justin, wearing egg-face is an improvement over some of the other things he has put on his face!  ;D )


I'll cut you some slack as its clear your limited job exposure/experience... your widget making cubicle world... hasn't given you an appreciation of what it might have meant for thousands of SNC-L employees to lose their jobs. To simply say that those employees could just get jobs with other bidding companies, shows you have no real grounding in the realities of large corporations operations and workforce management... notwithstanding said jobs could be hundreds-to-thousands of miles away. No biggee, hey member kimmy!

As the waldo continues to mock my employment, let me say this: I'm proud to work for a small Canadian company that does business with major clients on 6 continents, and wins bids against major league competitors without buying prostitutes, drugs, and yachts for blood-soaked dictators.

(I wonder how SNC employees felt when they learned that their employer had bought prostitutes, drugs, and yachts for Gaddafi Jr? I bet they weren't proud.)



 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City