Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 38320 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5033
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #765 on: March 09, 2019, 01:10:26 pm »
The National Observer is an unabashedly left-wing site, but this article is still worth a read.  It goes into some detail on how the UK has used their Deferred Prosecution Agreement law, on which ours is modeled, and talks about the case of Rolls-Royce, who were denied a DPA despite similar "economic impact" arguments being presented on their behalf.

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2019/03/08/analysis/hidden-key-snc-lavalin-scandal

Key factors in discussing whether SNC deserved a chance at a DPA:

Quote
The Criminal Code then sets out a number of circumstances that the prosecutor MUST consider, which are similar to the U.K. framework:

These include whether the accused organization self-reported to authorities (it did not); the nature and gravity of the offence (extremely serious); the involvement of senior officers (high); whether the organization has entered into a previous remediation agreement for similar conduct (multiple); whether the organization or its officers committed other offences (many).

Of special note is that the reported conduct continued over an extended period, almost a decade, with an extremely high dollar value.

On the positive side for SNC-Lavalin, it fired the people directly involved, had a complete turnover of senior management, and have instituted better internal checks and balances. So there's that.

In discussing SNC's eligibility for a DPA, this article sides with Ms Roussel:

Quote
In sum, SNC fails on all the primary tests a prosecutor would take into account, and passes only the most marginal or peripheral ones. Barring evidentiary issues that we have no way to assess, there is more than ample reason to support the determination of the DPP, and no substantial cause to overturn it.



Also discussed is the fact that the Gadaffi regime were awful people, and SNC cheerfully cozied up to them knowing full well how much blood was on their hands.  This passage, while perhaps somewhat emotional, deserves some consideration by people who keep talking about "9000 jobs":

Quote
SNC, a corporate giant, bribed a bloody despot's regime in exchange for billions in contracts

(...)

Canadians need a lot more context about what this case is about.
We need to talk about where this money went and who got hurt

At its heart, the SNC prosecution is the embodiment of the OECD anti-bribery framework to which Canada has long been a signatory, and on which our legislation, including DPAs, is modeled.

Corruption strikes the weak and disenfranchised first, last, and hardest.

It’s not the affluent who find bodies dumped on the side of the road, or militias opening fire on rebels and dissidents. Or have to re-assemble brutalized women and girls.

As soon as priorities shift to the most vulnerable victims of corruption, it's not hard to see why the AG declined to overturn the decision of Kathleen Roussel, Canada's DPP, to proceed to trial.

A corruption prosecution of this gravity is unprecedented in Canada.

Moreover, had the Libyan regime not collapsed and the bribery discovered, would this company still be in the game, still arranging prostitute parties and funnelling money to the Gaddafis?


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8713
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #766 on: March 09, 2019, 01:21:00 pm »
Only in that it somewhat flies in the face of Trudeau's talk of building a warm, welcoming place where people could talk to him freely to share their concerns and discuss issues and blah blah blah.  Ms Caesar-Chavannes' account of how Trudeau reacted when she approached him with her issues makes Trudeau's description of his cabinet seem doubtful.

with the official PMO statement reading there was absolutely no hostility from PM Trudeau towards the member. You will choose to accept her account because... you want to. I certainly won't go as far as those in this thread labeling her a "nutter"; however, as conveyed previously in this thread, she has many-times-over displayed her, as she self-describes, "fiery and uncensored" traits. Again, you (as others) will dismiss all the other female cabinet ministers positive testimonies coming forward in the last days - you'll simply dismiss them as "they're just towing the party line". What's quite telling is your most selective choices for "empowered women telling their truth"!

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3462
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #767 on: March 09, 2019, 01:24:21 pm »
Not the AG. The law isn't a political consensus. If a government doesn't like a law, then change it. Until then, obey it.

If that were actually the case, the AG wouldn't be a politician sitting in cabinet.  It doesn't really matter what's supposed to happen given that.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 02:15:48 pm by John Mark Taylor »

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5033
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #768 on: March 09, 2019, 01:46:35 pm »
with the official PMO statement reading there was absolutely no hostility from PM Trudeau towards the member.

Perhaps, to borrow Mr Butts' phrase, "she experienced it differently."

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8713
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #769 on: March 09, 2019, 01:52:09 pm »
Key factors in discussing whether SNC deserved a chance at a DPA:

In discussing SNC's eligibility for a DPA, this article sides with Ms Roussel:


Also discussed is the fact that the Gadaffi regime were awful people, and SNC cheerfully cozied up to them knowing full well how much blood was on their hands.  This passage, while perhaps somewhat emotional, deserves some consideration by people who keep talking about "9000 jobs":

and that NatOb writer hasn't seen the the DDPC's DPPC's assessment... the one that actually over-ruled the initial assessment done that intended to offer SNC-Lavalin an opportunity to negotiate within a DPA. But why would that stop the writer from expounding upon pure speculation?

more pointedly the actions of a few executives (now long-gone/departed from the company) leaves conviction/sentencing... principally fines... to be directed towards the company. The same thing that would occur under a DPA... a DPA that, by design/extension, has to be approved by a judge/court. Of course, along with that, the company (probably) does not get recognized for any remediation initiatives it has already enacted... succumbs to a criminal conviction... and loses the ability to bid on federal contracts for a decade. Who wins in this scenario... the oft quoted innocent of any wrong-doing 16,000 workers (direct employees and supply-chain), shareholders, pensioners, etc.?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 02:00:17 pm by waldo »

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8713
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #770 on: March 09, 2019, 01:55:13 pm »
Perhaps, to borrow Mr Butts' phrase, "she experienced it differently."

that doesn't sound like Butts... perhaps Wernick? In any case, would it be as "differently experienced", as the positive testimonies coming forward from other female cabinet ministers - yes?

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10186
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #771 on: March 09, 2019, 02:38:21 pm »
Shockingly, the PM/PMO are saying there was "absolutely no hostility" from Justin Trudeau towards Liberal MP Celina Caesar-Chavannes.  We believe you Justin! 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-celina-caesar-chavannes-hostility-1.5050129
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3462
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #772 on: March 09, 2019, 02:43:59 pm »
Shockingly, the PM/PMO are saying there was "absolutely no hostility" from Justin Trudeau towards Liberal MP Celina Caesar-Chavannes.  We believe you Justin! 

Why is that any less believable than her account?

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #773 on: March 09, 2019, 02:45:55 pm »
Why is that any less believable than her account?

Same reason Wernick and Butts were less believable than JWR.

Offline wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9118
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #774 on: March 09, 2019, 02:56:26 pm »
Except this issue isn't about obeying or changing a law, it was about whether or not to apply an existing law.

Exactly. Do you think laws should be applied for partisan political purposes? SNC is in Trudeau’s riding, he is the last person who should be talking to an AG about the case.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #775 on: March 09, 2019, 03:12:29 pm »
SNC is in Trudeau’s riding, he is the last person who should be talking to an AG about the case.

SNC has 86 offices across the country, that would exclude a lot of MPs. The head office however is on René-Lévesque Boulevard in downtown Montreal and not Trudeau's Papineau riding. I remember a former Prime Minister from Calgary, should he have done nothing concerning the oil industry?

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8563
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #776 on: March 09, 2019, 03:30:44 pm »
Exactly. Do you think laws should be applied for partisan political purposes? SNC is in Trudeau’s riding, he is the last person who should be talking to an AG about the case.

You could call considering the potential loss of 9000 jobs simply a partisan issue if you like, but the purpose the law was originally enacted was to attempt to prevent such occurrences. I see no reason such issues shouldn't be discussed at the highest levels. 

Offline wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9118
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #777 on: March 09, 2019, 04:01:01 pm »
You could call considering the potential loss of 9000 jobs simply a partisan issue if you like, but the purpose the law was originally enacted was to attempt to prevent such occurrences. I see no reason such issues shouldn't be discussed at the highest levels.

So you think a PM should be able to strongarm an AG. Just remember that next time you want to be critical of Trump for doing the same thing.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8713
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #778 on: March 09, 2019, 04:07:25 pm »
So you think a PM should be able to strongarm an AG. Just remember that next time you want to be critical of Trump for doing the same thing.

please provide your definition of "strong arm"... as you also provide citation(s) of evidence for same - thanks in advance.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8563
Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #779 on: March 09, 2019, 04:19:57 pm »
So you think a PM should be able to strongarm an AG. Just remember that next time you want to be critical of Trump for doing the same thing.

Nope, I certainly don't think that and I haven't seen any proof that was done. He said he asked her to reconsider the issue, but that it was her final decision. She said nothing illegal was done, but she felt some pressure she didn't like. The whole thing is still basically nebulous.