Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 38388 times)

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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #435 on: March 02, 2019, 12:13:56 pm »
The DPP made her decision.   They wanted the AG to overrule the DPP for political reasons.

A thing that is completely legal under Canadian law.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #436 on: March 02, 2019, 12:14:12 pm »
yes - most certainly... its unfortunate that JWR has given the impression she is "above" working to support Canada's veterans (notwithstanding her dual portfolio role as Associate Minister of National Defence).

Can you or JMT provide a single cite of her ever saying anything uncomplimentary about either veterans or the Veterans Affairs portfolio during her month as minister?

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #437 on: March 02, 2019, 12:15:08 pm »
A thing that is completely legal under Canadian law.

Refer to earlier comments regarding "legal" vs "unethical".

 -k
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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #438 on: March 02, 2019, 12:32:51 pm »
Can you or JMT provide a single cite of her ever saying anything uncomplimentary about either veterans or the Veterans Affairs portfolio during her month as minister?

 -k

How about the giant letter she wrote (which no one asked for) patting herself on the back for what she did as MoJ/AG?  What was the point of that?  It was unprecedented in Canadian history.  How about the fact that her dad immediately took the airwaves to talk about her 'demotion'?

Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #439 on: March 02, 2019, 12:33:19 pm »
Refer to earlier comments regarding "legal" vs "unethical".

 -k

We have a procedure for the political class to direct the DPP for a reason, I'd assume.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #440 on: March 02, 2019, 12:53:33 pm »
How about the giant letter she wrote (which no one asked for) patting herself on the back for what she did as MoJ/AG?  What was the point of that?  It was unprecedented in Canadian history.  How about the fact that her dad immediately took the airwaves to talk about her 'demotion'?

I'll take that as a no.

We have a procedure for the political class to direct the DPP for a reason, I'd assume.

The Public Prosecutor Service that everybody keeps saying is supposed to be independent?  You'd assume wrong.

We have a political class to shape the laws, not to direct the prosecution. 

Quote
The principle of the independence of the Attorney General is firmly entrenched in our legal system, widely respected, and carefully safeguarded. Perhaps less well understood is the operation of the independence principle in the day-to-day decision-making of individual Crown counsel. Crown counselFootnote 1 exercise their independence as the representative of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). As such, their "“independence”" is a delegated independence. This independence is institutional, rather than personal, and is aimed at safeguarding the independence of the Public Prosecution Service of Canada (PPSC). Crown counsel are obliged to make decisions in accordance with the directives of the Attorney General and the guidelines of the DPP,Footnote 2 and they act under the direction of Chief Federal Prosecutors (CFP), who are in turn responsible to the DPP and his or her Deputy DPPs.Footnote 3 That said, Crown counsel also retain a degree of discretion in individual cases.Footnote 4

https://www.ppsc-sppc.gc.ca/eng/pub/fpsd-sfpg/fps-sfp/tpd/p2/ch01.html


We can't have politicians telling crown prosecutors what to do. Break that wall and there's an endless potential for wrongdoing. It's one of the key things that separates us from a banana republic.


 -k
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #441 on: March 02, 2019, 12:55:35 pm »
They weren't pressuring her to do anything outside of the law.  She was being stubborn.  It's that simple.

Stubborn?  The PM/PMO etc gave their input, she took it, and made a legal decision on the basis of justice, not on the basis of partisan politics and electoral outcomes.  The PM would not accept her decision, and unleashed his minions on her continually.

Who was being stubborn? 

Do you support the AG to act independently based on what they conclude is proper justice, or do you support the AG to act in accordance to the will of the PM based on partisan electoral calculations and the lobbying efforts of a large corrupt corporation whose employees have donated generous sums to the PM's party?
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #442 on: March 02, 2019, 01:06:23 pm »
That's not the rationale she gave for stepping down from cabinet. She accepted the new posting to Veteran's Affairs, and held it for a month. She resigned only later, after Trudeau claimed that "her presence in Cabinet should speak for itself."

I've not seen/heard her express 'rationale' for resigning... not in her public released letter of resignation; not throughout her testimony before the Justice Committee. You say, 'she gave a rationale' - please, if you're able, provide citation support to that end... thanks in advance.

as for the actual JT statement; it was: "I respect her view that, due to privilege, she can't comment or add on matters recently before the media. I also highlight that we're bound by cabinet confidentiality. In our system of governance, her presence in cabinet should speak for itself," Trudeau said. "I continue to have full confidence in Jody." Subsequently, of course, privilege & matters of cabinet confidentiality (as regards the point to her cabinet shuffle) were waived to allow, as she expressed it, "her truth to be told". Ahem - apparently 'her truth' versus 'alternate truths'!

My concern here isn't to advocate on behalf of JWR.  I'm not a lawyer and am not in position to argue the merits of the major pieces of legislation that marked her time as justice minister.

and yet you have no qualms in repeatedly speaking to a "demotion". As you now openly state, you're not factoring anything else into why she might have been moved to other roles; you're not factoring the merits of her job performance and, I expect, you're not factoring her working relationships and the expressions of her work colleagues that speak to her as 'difficult', 'not-open', 'inflexible', etc.. Nor, I expect, are you factoring her formalized mandate... if you're not aware, all Ministers received mandates in terms of expected work/accomplishments they were to meet - a mandate she most certainly came no where close to meeting.

My concern here-- and I'm baffled that you and JMT aren't concerned-- is that the PMO spent 4 months trying to interfere in an ongoing legal issue for political reasons, and when the AG wouldn't comply, they found a new AG who'd do their bidding. That's concerning. That's banana republic shenanigans. That's Trump level shenanigans.

I'll repeat the same point I've made to you previously (I believe this is now the 3rd time I'm stating it): the DPPSC decision was one that, in itself, over-ruled that of the lead-prosecutor. More pointedly, until court proceedings commence, that decision is not binding and is open to change. You prefer to speak to "interference for political reasons" - versus initiatives to bring new information, new contextual analysis, new factors/influences, etc, forward to bring consideration towards reevaluating the initial decision. Essentially, as I've also previously stated to you, your want is to keep steadfast to a decision that, many suggest, is not in the public interest - not in the public interest when 9000 Canadian jobs might be in jeopardy, when the company might move its base of operations to another country, when the actual viability of the company itself could be at risk (particularly in regards a weakened position subject to takeover).

Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #443 on: March 02, 2019, 01:06:39 pm »
Stubborn?  The PM/PMO etc gave their input, she took it, and made a legal decision on the basis of justice, not on the basis of partisan politics and electoral outcomes.  The PM would not accept her decision, and unleashed his minions on her continually.

Who was being stubborn? 

Do you support the AG to act independently based on what they conclude is proper justice, or do you support the AG to act in accordance to the will of the PM based on partisan electoral calculations and the lobbying efforts of a large corrupt corporation whose employees have donated generous sums to the PM's party?

The AG is a political office.  It wasn’t just the PMO but 11 officials from multiple departments.  Her former colleagues from her time in BC have said she’s impossible to deal with.  The DPA was a sound legal solution and she made a decision that left her in a position to not make any more such decisions.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #444 on: March 02, 2019, 01:07:13 pm »
And the AG isn't - it's silly that we try to pretend that they are.  That's what the DPP is for.

The DPP isn't, if an AG acting on partisan calculations of the PM can override them.

"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #445 on: March 02, 2019, 01:10:53 pm »
Can you or JMT provide a single cite of her ever saying anything uncomplimentary about either veterans or the Veterans Affairs portfolio during her month as minister?

her resignation, sans expressed rationale, speaks volumes on how she viewed the portfolio... viewed her reassignment to support Canada's veterans/National Defence. Again, as I stated in my preceding reply to you: "You say, 'she gave a rationale' - please, if you're able, provide citation support to that end... thanks in advance."

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #446 on: March 02, 2019, 01:20:35 pm »
We can't have politicians telling crown prosecutors what to do. Break that wall and there's an endless potential for wrongdoing. It's one of the key things that separates us from a banana republic.

you're speaking a lot to an absence of (interpreted) "independence"; accordingly, please provide citation support to your implied statement that PPSC/DPPSC were "told". This tact you're using here is quite similar to your past oft expressed (unsubstantiated) claims of "undue pressure" put upon JWR.

Offline Omni

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #447 on: March 02, 2019, 01:25:47 pm »
I'm still waiting to find out the anonymous source(s) who spoke to the G&M in the first place which generated their original story. Seems to be a focus on JWR's dad.   
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #448 on: March 02, 2019, 01:43:44 pm »
The PM/PMO etc gave their input, she took it, and made a legal decision on the basis of justice, not on the basis of partisan politics and electoral outcomes.  The PM would not accept her decision, and unleashed his minions on her continually.

great - you appear to have a missing piece! Many have noted an absence of the legal foundation JWR used to support her unwillingness to act to have the DPPSC re-evaluated. Please provide, as you say, "the basis of justice her decision relied upon"... one you call her "legal decision". Thanks in advance - waiting.......

Do you support the AG to act independently based on what they conclude is proper justice, or do you support the AG to act in accordance to the will of the PM based on partisan electoral calculations and the lobbying efforts of a large corrupt corporation whose employees have donated generous sums to the PM's party?

do you support a Justice Minister/AJ that refuses to meet with Senators/Senate Committee to review the related bill passages/concept of DPA legislation? Do you support a Justice Minister/AJ who refuses to, when questioned, provide her personal views on remediation agreements?

why use the long-past actions of a small number of select executives (now long gone from the company) against the current company/employees?

per Elections Canada I'm aware of improper political contributions that resulted in charges against a single SNC-Lavalin executive who orchestrated illegal political donations paid to federal political parties between 2004 and 2011 - charges related to related soliciting employees to make political contributions and concealing their identities..... to the tune of $117K. Charges against one executive, not the company proper. An accounting of what you describe as "generous sums" contributed by employees between 2004-2011:
=> $83,534.51 to the Liberal Party of Canada; $13,552.13 to various Liberal riding associations; $12,529.12 to four contestants in the 2006 Liberal leadership race, including $5,000 each to Michael Ignatieff and Bob Rae;
=> $3,137.73 to the Conservative Party of Canada; and $5,050 to various Conservative riding associations.

note: said "generous amounts" were repaid by the respective parties... repaid to the Federal Treasury. Do you have additional information to add more monies to this "generous amount" tally? Please advise - thanks.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #449 on: March 02, 2019, 01:44:40 pm »
I'm still waiting to find out the anonymous source(s) who spoke to the G&M in the first place which generated their original story. Seems to be a focus on JWR's dad.

You want to shoot the messenger?   Whoever it was shed light on political interference into a criminal prosecution.   Give them a medal.
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