Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 38441 times)

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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #420 on: March 02, 2019, 04:16:32 am »
Since the firing of the AG for not agreeing to the dpa, her replacement has now said he may force prosecutors to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin, despite protests from the Director of Public Prosecution Service in Canada. This kind of threat to influence and intimidate prosecutors who are supposed to be free of any political interference from elected officials has never been done before. In fact cases to date have made it clear you can not coerce a Crown prosecutor to do things based on concerns or interests unrelated to the crime itself.

This is such a disturbing development in legal terms, that yesterday 5 former Attorney Generals have filed a law suit against the current government...

yes, as I noted earlier:
Quote
New federal Attorney-General David Lametti says it is still possible he could issue a directive to the prosecution service to settle corruption charges against SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. out of court.

“There is a specific set of rules that would allow the Attorney-General to direct a public process, in a transparent process, through the Canada Gazette,” he told CTV’s Question Period on Sunday. “That remains a possibility. But I’m not going to comment on the possibility of that now because that case is before the courts.”

AJ Lametti was speaking broadly to a possibility... a possibility he would not comment on given the case is before the courts. Accordingly, please cite support for your statement, "said he may force prosecutors to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin, despite protests from the Director of Public Prosecution Service in Canada". More pointedly, AJ Lametti speaks to a specific set of applicable rules to support such a possibility; accordingly, please cite support your statement, "This is such a disturbing development in legal terms, that yesterday 5 former Attorney Generals have filed a law suit against the current government..."

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #421 on: March 02, 2019, 04:25:41 am »
That sucking and blowing...

is your typical bloviating that makes many refuse to read your posts in their entirety... which, sans bloviating, occasionally warrant debate worthy reply comment.
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #422 on: March 02, 2019, 09:34:15 am »
is your typical bloviating that makes many refuse to read your posts in their entirety... which, sans bloviating, occasionally warrant debate worthy reply comment.

Pot, meet kettle.....
If Omni, Impact, and the_squid ever had a love child, I would be him
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #423 on: March 02, 2019, 10:45:37 am »
But it isn't really one - a department with a huge workforce and a $4B per year budget is hardly a menial task.

Trying to spin it as anything other than a demotion is silly.  Minister of Justice is among the most prestigious postings in Cabinet. Only Finance and maybe Defense and Foreign Affairs are comparable. People like Pierre Trudeau, John Turner, Jean Chretien, Kim Campbell were Justice minister before becoming Prime Minister.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #424 on: March 02, 2019, 11:10:19 am »
That's nonsense.  The cabinet serves at the PMs pleasure.

The idea that the Attorney General is to be independent of political influence and the idea that the PM can fire and replace the Attorney General at any time he wishes are completely at odds with each other.   It's the same reason that politicians can't directly fire judges. It's the reason that university professors receive tenure.   If you're supposed to be independent from politics but the politicians can fire you at any time they want, then you're not really independent from politics.

Having policy discussions with the Justice Minister is something that members of cabinet would of course do all the time. But discussing the SNC-Lavalin prosecution wasn't a policy discussion, it was a legal matter. So they weren't talking to the Justice Minister, they were talking to the Attorney General during those conversations. And the ethics of trying to influence the Attorney General regarding an ongoing legal matter should be obvious to everyone.

Right - the onus is on the AG not to bow to pressure.

And clearly she didn't. Which leads to...

Except she didn't bend to his will and that is likely why she's not AG anymore.

Exactly.

Right now there's a strong appearance that the Prime Minister fired the Attorney General for not doing what he wanted, and appointed a new Attorney General who would do what he wanted.

The potential for political interference in the administration of justice is something that western democracies strive to avoid. It's one of the basic tenets of our system of government.  See ongoing events south of the border for more examples of why justice and prosecution need to be at arms length from politicians.

JWR mentioned that the Minister of Justice and AG might need to be separate roles by different people to better maintain its political independence.  Maybe Parliament should study that as she suggested.

That should be the lasting outcome from this affair.

 -k
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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #425 on: March 02, 2019, 11:17:44 am »
The idea that the Attorney General is to be independent of political influence and the idea that the PM can fire and replace the Attorney General at any time he wishes are completely at odds with each other.   It's the same reason that politicians can't directly fire judges. It's the reason that university professors receive tenure.   If you're supposed to be independent from politics but the politicians can fire you at any time they want, then you're not really independent from politics.

And the AG isn't - it's silly that we try to pretend that they are.  That's what the DPP is for.

Quote
Having policy discussions with the Justice Minister is something that members of cabinet would of course do all the time. But discussing the SNC-Lavalin prosecution wasn't a policy discussion, it was a legal matter. So they weren't talking to the Justice Minister, they were talking to the Attorney General during those conversations. And the ethics of trying to influence the Attorney General regarding an ongoing legal matter should be obvious to everyone.

They weren't pressuring her to do anything outside of the law.  She was being stubborn.  It's that simple.

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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #426 on: March 02, 2019, 11:19:12 am »
Trying to spin it as anything other than a demotion is silly.

Well, seeing the way she handled being given two portfolios (Veterans Affairs and Minister of Defence #2) vs how MacAuley handled it shows that she deserved the demotion.  I've come to realize she's entitled and lacks any amount of humility. 

And that by the way is as common an opinion (from what I've seen anyway) as the popular opinion that she's a saint, being put down by the bully Trudeau.

Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #427 on: March 02, 2019, 11:23:31 am »
This is how you handle being given the chance to serve our veterans:

https://twitter.com/L_MacAulay/status/1101528427583234048

It is a great honour for me to return to a role that I cherished so much when I had the great fortune to serve as Secretary of State for Veterans Affairs. There is no greater honour in Canadian public life than serving the veterans of this country who made Canada what it is today

---

I want our veterans know that I’m ready to get to work, that my door is always open, and that it is one of the greatest honours in our country’s public life to serve Canadian veterans at the Cabinet table.

---

I know that Minister @mclaudebibeau truly cares about farmers and agriculture and you will be extremely well-served with her leadership.

---

I also want to sincerely thank the Prime Minister for the opportunity to serve as Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food these past three years and for his continued faith and support in extending the opportunity to serve our veterans.

__________________________

That's class, dignity, and humility.

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #428 on: March 02, 2019, 11:31:43 am »
Trying to spin it as anything other than a demotion is silly.

you have repeatedly stated JWR was 'fired' - no one was fired; please reconsider your inappropriate wording. If one were to accept your premise that the cabinet shuffle was a demotion, do you agree with and accept it as the rationale for JWR choosing to resign - if not, why not?

cabinet shuffles are common through the passage of time in any government; I can't recall and/or find examples of government shuffles that brought a 'shuffled' Minister to resign - can you?

more pointedly, since you choose from day one to advocate on JWR's behalf, please advise what would warrant keeping JWR in that position as Justice Minister/AJ... please base your findings on her body of work accomplishments factoring the significant criticisms she has taken in regards legislation she has worked to create/pass, her working & personal relationships with others, and most significantly an evaluation of the formalized mandate she was given as said Minister. Thanks in advance... looking forward to you being able to substantiate your continued advocacy.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #429 on: March 02, 2019, 11:34:37 am »
And the AG isn't - it's silly that we try to pretend that they are.  That's what the DPP is for.

The DPP made her decision.   They wanted the AG to overrule the DPP for political reasons.  I'm astounded that you don't see why this is a bad precedent to set.

They weren't pressuring her to do anything outside of the law.  She was being stubborn.  It's that simple.

"outside the law" and outside the realm of ethical behavior are two different things.

Justin Trudeau and Mathieu Bourchard both referenced the upcoming election in telling her why they needed her to interfere in the SNC-Lavalin case. That should be a huge red flag for you.  That is a red flag so big it's visible from space. Why can't you see it?

 -k
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #430 on: March 02, 2019, 11:34:51 am »
And the AG isn't - it's silly that we try to pretend that they are.  That's what the DPP is for.

They weren't pressuring her to do anything outside of the law.  She was being stubborn.  It's that simple.

succinct and most accurate! JWR herself advised there were NO illegalities... advised that she was NOT directed to change her decision.

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #431 on: March 02, 2019, 11:46:17 am »
Justin Trudeau and Mathieu Bourchard both referenced the upcoming election in telling her why they needed her to interfere in the SNC-Lavalin case. That should be a huge red flag for you. That is a red flag so big it's visible from space. Why can't you see it?

the reference was in regards the Quebec election - get it right, hey! And the comment, as stated in context, was in regards a concern for jobs and the viability of the company - a comment made, as he openly stated, in his capacity as a Quebec MP in Papineau. Which he followed up by advising JWR that he was not politically interfering in her role.. aligning with the many times expressed statements that the decision was JWRs to make.

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #432 on: March 02, 2019, 11:53:14 am »
This is how you handle being given the chance to serve our veterans:

https://twitter.com/L_MacAulay/status/1101528427583234048

That's class, dignity, and humility.

yes - most certainly... its unfortunate that JWR has given the impression she is "above" working to support Canada's veterans (notwithstanding her dual portfolio role as Associate Minister of National Defence).


Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #433 on: March 02, 2019, 12:00:52 pm »
"outside the law" and outside the realm of ethical behavior are two different things.

I suggest you need to be shuffled from your current role as Ethics Commissionaire for Canadian Political Events... how did you get that job in the first place? Speaking of which, do you believe JWR's 4 years as a junior prosecutor dealing with low-level drug crimes warrants being given the job as Canada's Justice Minister/AJ? Might there have been another reason(s) behind that assignment?  ;D Say it ain't so JT... say it ain't so!

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #434 on: March 02, 2019, 12:11:37 pm »
you have repeatedly stated JWR was 'fired' - no one was fired; please reconsider your inappropriate wording. If one were to accept your premise that the cabinet shuffle was a demotion, do you agree with and accept it as the rationale for JWR choosing to resign - if not, why not?

cabinet shuffles are common through the passage of time in any government; I can't recall and/or find examples of government shuffles that brought a 'shuffled' Minister to resign - can you?

That's not the rationale she gave for stepping down from cabinet. She accepted the new posting to Veteran's Affairs, and held it for a month. She resigned only later, after Trudeau claimed that "her presence in Cabinet should speak for itself."

more pointedly, since you choose from day one to advocate on JWR's behalf, please advise what would warrant keeping JWR in that position as Justice Minister/AJ... please base your findings on her body of work accomplishments factoring the significant criticisms she has taken in regards legislation she has worked to create/pass, her working & personal relationships with others, and most significantly an evaluation of the formalized mandate she was given as said Minister. Thanks in advance... looking forward to you being able to substantiate your continued advocacy.

My concern here isn't to advocate on behalf of JWR.  I'm not a lawyer and am not in position to argue the merits of the major pieces of legislation that marked her time as justice minister.  I do find it interesting that all of these op-eds complaining about her signature legislation only appeared after the SNC-Lavalin affair became public. Perhaps Katie Telford "lined up all kinds of people to write op-eds" as she suggested she could do.

My concern here-- and I'm baffled that you and JMT aren't concerned-- is that the PMO spent 4 months trying to interfere in an ongoing legal issue for political reasons, and when the AG wouldn't comply, they found a new AG who'd do their bidding. That's concerning. That's banana republic shenanigans. That's Trump level shenanigans.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
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