Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 38344 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #390 on: February 28, 2019, 09:26:47 pm »
Right - the onus is on the AG not to bow to pressure.

Ok, but are you're saying there's no onus on the PM/PMO/Clerk of the Privy Council/government to avoid politically interfering in the independence of our judiciary by applying sustained political pressure and possibly even intimidation and veiled threats?

There's a difficulty in not bowing to pressure when the one who is applying pressure (PM) has the ability to get rid of you.

JWR mentioned that the Minister of Justice and AG might need to be separate roles by different people to better maintain its political independence.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 09:31:32 pm by Poonlight Graham »
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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #391 on: February 28, 2019, 09:28:35 pm »
Ok, but are you're saying there's no onus on the PM/PMO/Clerk of the Privy Council/government to avoid politically interfering in the independence of our judiciary by applying sustained political pressure and possibly even intimidation and veiled threats?

Well, she's also the Minister of Justice - that's what I'm telling you.  She has more than one job.  If she felt that she was pressured, it was on her not to bow to that pressure.  There's nothing on the rest of them.  Nothing at all.  As she herself said, nothing illegal was done.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #392 on: February 28, 2019, 09:31:16 pm »
Well, she's also the Minister of Justice - that's what I'm telling you.  She has more than one job.  If she felt that she was pressured, it was on her not to bow to that pressure.  There's nothing on the rest of them.  Nothing at all.  As she herself said, nothing illegal was done.

JWR mentioned that the Minister of Justice and AG might need to be separate roles by different people to better maintain its political independence.  Maybe Parliament should study that as she suggested.
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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #393 on: February 28, 2019, 09:35:42 pm »
JWR mentioned that the Minister of Justice and AG might need to be separate roles by different people to better maintain its political independence.  Maybe Parliament should study that as she suggested.

I thought that was an idea, but then, that's why we have the Director of Public Prosecutions in Canada.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #394 on: February 28, 2019, 10:36:36 pm »
I don't think the PMO/PM has handled this scandal the best they could.  JT has trapped himself in a corner where he has to keep going against JWR's comments.

I wonder if he just admitted whatever happened towards the beginning of all this if the fire would have gone out quicker for the Liberals and be mostly forgotten by October?
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #395 on: February 28, 2019, 11:49:46 pm »
Quote
New details have emerged about Quebec engineering giant SNC-Lavalin’s cozy relationship with the son of former Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi, including the company allegedly hiring prostitutes for him during a visit to Canada a decade ago.

$30K over a decade ago (with some of that "alleged") - wowzers! Again, none of the related executive of that day remain with the company - they were long ago sent packing. Care to suggest what point you're attempting to make with this and how it might be relevant to an evaluation of the company... today?

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #396 on: March 01, 2019, 12:17:56 am »
There's a pretty clear hierarchy within a caucus and within a cabinet.  Put Morneau as the Minister of Sport and see how he likes it.  Prime Ministers have long used their power to appoint and remove MPs to/from different cabinet posts, committees, and schedule speaking time in the House of Commons etc. to reward or punish MPs based on their obedience.  Parliament is one big ass-kissing party.

JWR was tasked not only with the Ministry of Veteran Affairs, she was also given the role of Associate Minister of National Defence. Your implication that she personally might consider the cabinet shuffle a demotion is simply more consideration for the view JWR is a whiny vindictive person bent on retaliation... and yes, to your earlier point, there is an ever growing sense/suspicion that JWR may herself be the anonymous source for the Robert Fife/G&M story that kicked all this off.

following your demotion theme there is no shortage of opinion (much of it fact based) that JWR performed poorly, was difficult to work with and didn't get along with others; as presented earlier:

=> Jody Wilson-Raybould Did A Poor Job As Justice Minister

=> Wilson-Raybould battled Bennett, other ministers over Indigenous rights framework

=> Wilson-Raybould’s regrettable legacy as justice minister

=>


=>

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #397 on: March 01, 2019, 12:58:45 am »
Let's be clear, the PM created a dpa and passed it into law hiding it in an omnibus bill.

actually, the Liberal government brought forward the DPA legislation... that was passed into (criminal code) law. Nothing was hidden:

=> there were formal consultations leading up to the bill; consultations which drew 370 participants (370 Canadians, industry associations, businesses, non-governmental organizations and others participated.), and 75 written submissions - all public record.

=> members of the House had opportunity to scrutinize the DPA related provisions within the bill - note: the government of the day isn't responsible for doing the Opposition parties due diligence.

=> there was extensive review of the bill provisions at a Senate committee level - all public record

as an aside: during her recent testimony before the Justice Committee, JWR was asked several times for her personal view on remediation agreements (DPAs) - she refused to answer, advising that her personal view is irrelevant. A most curious/interesting response given: Wilson-Raybould snubbed Senate committee on corporate corruption bill

Quote
Former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould angered senators by refusing to give testimony on a change to the Criminal Code that is now at the centre of allegations that she was improperly pressured to help SNC-Lavalin avoid criminal prosecution.
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The {Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs} committee held extensive hearings last May and heard from an array of expert witnesses, including Justice Department officials, who suggested that some questions were best put to the minister of justice. The committee invited Wilson-Raybould but she did not show up.
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Senators on the committee were sufficiently miffed by Wilson-Raybould's no-show to make an "observation" about it in their final report: "The committee notes it did not have the opportunity to hear the testimony of the minister of justice on the proposed amendments that are under her ministerial mandate, although she was invited to appear."
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In the case of a minister who personally disagrees with a bill that falls under his or her responsibility, Joyal said: "If the decision of the government is to proceed with the bill, you have no choice than to stand by the bill. And if you don't want to stand by the bill, well, the option is to resign from the portfolio. It's quite clear."

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #398 on: March 01, 2019, 01:16:25 am »
A prosecutor not Justin Trudeau decides what if any plea or sentence is appropriate by considering the elements of the offence only. The elements of the offence do not include whether the criminal employs people who might lose jobs if the criminal goes to jail.

notwithstanding you wrote hundreds of words on sentencing, none of it is relevant to a remediation agreement (DPA)... at least near the end of your post you actually started to properly speak to the DPA as a 'non-prosecution agreement' (your words)...

as an aside, the case prosecutor did rule in favour of granting SNC-Lavalin a DPA - this was over-ruled by the Director of PPSC. During her Justice Committee testimony, JWR was asked several times why she was not willing to reverse the initial decision (a decision not binding until court commencement) - JWR advised those questions should more properly be directed to the PPSC. More pointedly: from Sept 2018 on through to today, JWR has never presented her legal analysis supporting the rejection of a DPA for SNC-Lavalin.

in any case, good-faith communication centered around 'public interest' could be seen to usurp the 'economic impacts to the company' clause to not grant a DPA.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 01:24:31 am by waldo »

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #399 on: March 01, 2019, 01:39:33 am »
As of this evening the Opposition Leader asked the RCMP to commence a criminal investigation as to whether Trudeau  et al violated s.139(l) of the Criminal Code.

I myself do not think there is sufficient evidence to prove a wilful attempt to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice. There certainly was an intent to pressure the AG but to prove it was criminal in intent is another story. Proving mens rea or criminal intent would mean proving Trudeau ordered the AG to implement the dpa. He never ordered it. So I think in that sense he falls short of having committed a crime.

during her Justice Committee testimony, in response to repeated questioning, JWR acknowledged no one, NO ONE, directed her to change the PPSC decision against a DPA. Additionally, all manner of legal experts have 'weighed in' to advise there were no illegalities involved in members of the government/PMO/Privy Council (several times over several months) bringing information, analysis, concerns, etc., forward for JWR's consideration - NO ILLEGALITIES. So, of course, the dullard Scheer does what only he can sink to - it will be worth it to see the beeatch slapping the RCMP gives to Scheer Conservatives!

the bottom line: she said/they said... and they say no undue pressures were exerted. JWR' fee-fee sensitivities and vindictive want for retaliation will not persevere.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #400 on: March 01, 2019, 05:37:29 am »
the bottom line: she said/they said... and they say no undue pressures were exerted. JWR' fee-fee sensitivities and vindictive want for retaliation will not persevere.

uh-huh.  But here's the thing: when has a senior cabinet minister pulled this kind of Mexican stand-off with a PM ?  And why ?

I actually feel like there's a good chance she just went nuclear because of chemistry issues with Butts or Trudeau, and that the 'pressure' wasn't more than what cabinet ministers usually get.  But it's still Trudeau's job to manage his team.

In this times we need vision, and I really want to see all three leaders gone and replaced with someone with imagination.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #401 on: March 01, 2019, 06:47:08 am »
I actually feel like there's a good chance she just went nuclear because of chemistry issues with Butts or Trudeau, and that the 'pressure' wasn't more than what cabinet ministers usually get.  But it's still Trudeau's job to manage his team.
Trudeau chose to move JWR out of Justice. That was his fatal mistake. That turned the "normal pressure" into something that is a lot more malevolent in retrospect.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 06:57:34 am by TimG »
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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #402 on: March 01, 2019, 08:10:00 am »
Trudeau chose to move JWR out of Justice. That was his fatal mistake. That turned the "normal pressure" into something that is a lot more malevolent in retrospect.

That's nonsense.  The cabinet serves at the PMs pleasure. 
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #403 on: March 01, 2019, 09:14:24 am »
uh-huh.  But here's the thing: when has a senior cabinet minister pulled this kind of Mexican stand-off with a PM ?  And why ?

I actually feel like there's a good chance she just went nuclear because of chemistry issues with Butts or Trudeau, and that the 'pressure' wasn't more than what cabinet ministers usually get.  But it's still Trudeau's job to manage his team.

In this times we need vision, and I really want to see all three leaders gone and replaced with someone with imagination.

Peter Mackay should come out of retirement and lead the Tories to victory.
If Omni, Impact, and the_squid ever had a love child, I would be him
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #404 on: March 01, 2019, 10:34:02 am »
That's nonsense.  The cabinet serves at the PMs pleasure.

He wanted to undermine the independence of the the AG and insert Liberal election chances into judicial decisions, and when he couldn't, he found one who would bend to his will.  Yes there's a malevolence to that.  Sure he can swap ministers, doesn't mean the reasoning is ethical.
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