Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 38387 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #165 on: February 17, 2019, 01:50:34 am »
Lobbying in Canada

SNC-LAVALIN --- Lobbying & Political Activities 2018

you're welcome

Sure let's look up the transcripts of the conversations SNV-L had with the PMO while lobbying over the criminal charges.  Oh wait those don't exist.

Should lobbying happen behind closed doors?  Maybe lobbyin, unless involving national security, should be done in public or in writing only and not face-to-face in private off-the-record.  But that will never happen, lobbying is big money.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #166 on: February 17, 2019, 01:52:03 am »
She may have perceived pressure, but if she was told by her boss that the decision was hers and she still perceived pressure then perhaps she was not right for the job.

perhaps with her resignation, Ms. Wilson-Raybould also acknowledged she was not right for the dual role responsibilities as, 'Minister of Veteran Affairs // Associate Minister of National Defence'... some, certainly not the waldo, are suggesting that since she lost here avenue to more directly influence the pace/direction of so-called, 'indigenous reconciliation', she opted to leave cabinet... perhaps ultimately leading to her quitting politics outright.



Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #167 on: February 17, 2019, 01:57:21 am »
Sure let's look up the transcripts of the conversations SNV-L had with the PMO while lobbying over the criminal charges.  Oh wait those don't exist.

Should lobbying happen behind closed doors?  Maybe lobbyin, unless involving national security, should be done in public or in writing only and not face-to-face in private off-the-record.  But that will never happen, lobbying is big money.

;D geezaz, I answered your question on, 'what kind of democracy'!

here, read this before you have another 'over the top' moment: Full text of the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #168 on: February 17, 2019, 01:59:19 am »
;D geezaz, I answered your question on, 'what kind of democracy'!

here, read this before you have another 'over the top' moment: Full text of the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct

Posting links isn't an argument.  Posting quotes from said links to back up a claim is an argument.

The fact that Canada has lobbying rules doesn't mean they're adequate.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #169 on: February 17, 2019, 02:04:43 am »
Posting links isn't an argument.  Posting quotes from said links to back up a claim is an argument.

The fact that Canada has lobbying rules doesn't mean they're adequate.

are your full-on, over-the-top, bad-cussin' infused rants (sans support/citation)... an argument?  ;D
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #170 on: February 17, 2019, 12:27:07 pm »

waldo reminder (per Q&A with uOttawa Law Professor, Yan Campagnolo):




notwithstanding, of course, the/a matter is before the courts - SNC-Lavalin prosecution continues... so what say the Scheermongers!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 11:24:38 am by John Mark Taylor »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #171 on: February 17, 2019, 12:50:42 pm »
the words you struggled to find were... 'giving direction'.

A completely meaningless distinction.




She may have perceived pressure, but if she was told by her boss that the decision was hers and she still perceived pressure then perhaps she was not right for the job.

Can you envision a scenario when someone needs to ask whether they're being directed to do something, if they're not being pressured?

Trudeau's exact words, according to the waldo's screen-shot:

"Obviously as a government we take very seriously our responsibility of standing up for jobs, of protecting jobs, of growing the economy, of making sure there are good jobs right across the country, as there are with SNC-Lavalin.  But as we do that we always need to make sure we're standing up for the rule of law and protecting the independence of our justice system."
 
(I don't know why he posts images rather than text, but that's beside the point. Those are Trudeau's words, according to the waldo's source.)

He wants people to know that he stands up for jobs, but he also stands up for the rule of law. But why was he having this conversation with JWR at all? He wanted her to ask Kathleen Roussel to consider protecting jobs while she ruled on whether SNC-Lavalin was eligible for a DPA?  As this article explains, that's not allowed:

Quote
Under a so-called “deferred prosecution agreement” (DPA), the prosecutor stays proceedings against the organization, which in turn pays a fine, offers some form of remediation, and agrees to stronger reporting requirements. If the company meets all the terms of a DPA, charges are dropped.

Much has been said about how a reasonable attorney general might opt for the DPA considering all the harm a criminal conviction of the engineering giant might do to the economies of Quebec and Canada.

But if you read the actual language creating the DPA option, it will become clear why Wilson-Raybould and her director of public prosecutions Kathleen Roussel were not only correct in their decision, but required to make it.

When firms are charged under the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act, as was SNC-Lavalin…

“The prosecutor,” states the legislation, “must not consider the national economic interest, the potential effect on relations with a state other than Canada, or the identity of the organization or individual involved.”

So, in talking about trying to balance the rule of law with "standing up for jobs", Trudeau is expressing a view that they wanted JWR to do something that the law didn't permit.  Asking her to think of the jobs involved is expressly forbidden in the very law they passed to create DPAs in the first place.

Again, why would Trudeau and JWR have been having this conversation in the first place?

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #172 on: February 17, 2019, 12:55:30 pm »
oh my! Desperate ConMedia Postmedia got snookered... falling for a fake Gerald Butts twitter account... publishing an article quoting 2/2 fake tweets last Thursday in Toronto, Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary newspapers - also ran online throughout Postmedia ranks.

Sun papers published a lame/weak-assed correction on Friday


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Offline eyeball

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #173 on: February 17, 2019, 01:01:19 pm »
Lobbying in Canada
There's nothing wrong with lobbying public officials, the problem is when its done in-camera.  It should be outlawed and we should also turn the Freedom of Information Act on its head so it requires governments get permission from a panel of judges to keep something secret, and especially before going in-camera with a lobbyist.

Lobbying a public official about issues in the public's domain should be regarded as being exactly the same as lobbying the public. There should be no expectation of privacy and secrecy unless there is some clearly identified legal reason or need to do so that is vetted by the FOI panel I mentioned.  Citing concerns about political sensitivities should yield an automatic no.

I realize that insisting on better behaviour from our betters is shockingly temeritous but it is what it is.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 01:26:58 pm by eyeball »
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #174 on: February 17, 2019, 01:14:03 pm »
Scheermongers are out in force - vigorously supporting the rights of the G&M source to (continued) anonymity... while at the same time demanding full cabinet transparency on everything! Everything!!!
I would think reducing a lot of the secrecy in our governance would also reduce an enormous amount of the media's secretiveness as well as reducing the public's angst and titillation that comes form never knowing enough about wtf is going on.

Quote
notwithstanding, of course, the/a matter is before the courts - SNC-Lavalin prosecution continues... so what say the Scheermongers!
We have no reason whatsoever to believe that Conservatives wouldn't recoil with as much horror from the idea of outlawing in-camera lobbying as the Liberals would and for the precise same reason.  They're only making the noise they're making because its the easiest course of action for them. Take away the secrecy and they might have to do something more constructive, like explain why and how things would be better if they were in charge.

They could propose to outlaw lobbying in secret but I wouldn't hold my breath.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 01:23:25 pm by eyeball »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #175 on: February 17, 2019, 01:15:48 pm »
Scheermongers are out in force - vigorously supporting the rights of the G&M source to (continued) anonymity... while at the same time demanding full cabinet transparency on everything! Everything!!!
...
notwithstanding, of course, the/a matter is before the courts - SNC-Lavalin prosecution continues... so what say the Scheermongers!

This whole issue is clearly partisan to you.  Scheermongers huh?  How Donald Trump of you.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 11:23:20 am by John Mark Taylor »
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #176 on: February 17, 2019, 01:29:36 pm »
A completely meaningless distinction.

no - your wishful thinking distinction is anything but meaningless!

Can you envision a scenario when someone needs to ask whether they're being directed to do something, if they're not being pressured?

you mean the Ms. kimmy wishful thinking scenario - that one? You mean the myriad of lawful discussions that apparently (collectively) included a provincial premier, cabinet members, cabinet staff, relevant departmental staff, lobbyists, etc.? Those lawful meetings?

He wants people to know that he stands up for jobs, but he also stands up for the rule of law. But why was he having this conversation with JWR at all?

So, in talking about trying to balance the rule of law with "standing up for jobs", Trudeau is expressing a view that they wanted JWR to do something that the law didn't permit.  Asking her to think of the jobs involved is expressly forbidden in the very law they passed to create DPAs in the first place.

Again, why would Trudeau and JWR have been having this conversation in the first place?

keep wishing... and definitely not related to an acknowledgment/acceptance of your wishful thinking, I suggest you read my earlier reply - to you!

breaking the law presumes upon conviction - you're ahead of the cart!

uhhh, can you attach scandal to an allegation... well, I mean you can... but is that legitimate? By the by, yes - it is an important constitutional principle that the Attorney General holds independence in deciding whether to prosecute and in making prosecution policy... however, the AJ maintains discretion in making said decisions. Ms. Wilson-Raybould made her decision in Oct 2018... is said to have never brought forward any concerns she might have held in making her decision... and only when Ms. Wilson-Raybould is a part of a Jan 2019 cabinet shuffle does the G&M run with its "anonymous sources".

PPSC policy guideline:



found within the Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook:



Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #177 on: February 17, 2019, 01:35:14 pm »
This whole issue is clearly partisan to you.

facts are facts... facts aren't partisan are they? You and your ilk are feverishly getting ahead of your own baited breath! Why... how partisan of you, hey!

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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #178 on: February 17, 2019, 01:49:30 pm »
I would think reducing a lot of the secrecy in our governance would also reduce an enormous amount of the media's secretiveness as well as reducing the public's angst and titillation that comes form never knowing enough about wtf is going on.

within reason, within practicality

We have no reason whatsoever to believe that Conservatives wouldn't recoil with as much horror from the idea of outlawing in-camera lobbying as the Liberals would and for the precise same reason.  They're only making the noise they're making because its the easiest course of action for them. Take away the secrecy and they might have to do something more constructive, like explain why and how things would be better if they were in charge.

of course - agree completely... tribal on all sides! Forever on the prowl for 'gotcha moments' to presume to exploit with the media. And the lame-assed media falls right into it... laps it up!

They could propose to outlaw lobbying in secret but I wouldn't hold my breath.

well... again within reason, within practicality. The earlier link I provided does offer some level of detail - certainly not, I expect, to the level of transparency you're implying

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #179 on: February 17, 2019, 02:14:42 pm »
I would rather focus on changes to make the the process such as an outright prohibition on measures unrelated to the budget being included in the budget bill.

Agreed, these omnibus budget bills have to stop. Regardless if the deferred prosecution agreement has merit, or not, the fact is it was not sufficiently examined by Parliament.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 02:19:26 pm by ?Impact »
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