Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 38434 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #135 on: February 15, 2019, 05:21:17 pm »
Cool, you google SNC-Lavalin, and first up pops an ad for the Conservative Party of Canada.

Here you go:  https://start.duckduckgo.com/
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Offline Omni

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #136 on: February 15, 2019, 05:22:46 pm »
Google maintains a 'fingerprint' of your browser and uses that to predict what ads you would like to see. This fingerprint is not affected by incognito because it uses information like the installed fonts and other data which browsers provide to web servers in order to select the page to return. So google has you flagged as someone interested in political ads.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canvas_fingerprinting

You seem to be a little confused as to how the newspaper ends up on your doorstep and what's actually written in it.

I think it's called "shooting the messenger"
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #137 on: February 15, 2019, 05:43:13 pm »
...for possibly the worst scandal in, well when Chretien was in charge, maybe longer

the "worst scandal" evah!!! Wait, what?

- where political interference in SNC-Lavalin prosecution is alleged
- where the alleged interference is based on anonymous sources
- where the alleged interference remains unsupported by any actual evidence

and, wait for it, wait for it... the SNC-Lavalin prosecution continues unabated
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 05:54:50 pm by waldo »

Offline TimG

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #138 on: February 15, 2019, 06:02:43 pm »
As with most scandals the problem is the handling, not the facts.

If Trudeau had:

1) Split the deferred prosecution agreement from omnibus bill and got opposition buy in (not hard since they all want Quebec votes too).
2) Kept JWR in her job;
2) Looked to change the rule on bidding on federal contracts for 10 years if JWR did not agree to use deferred prosecution;

Then he would not be in the mess he is in today.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #139 on: February 15, 2019, 08:08:58 pm »
As with most scandals the problem is the handling, not the facts.

If Trudeau had:

1) Split the deferred prosecution agreement from omnibus bill and got opposition buy in (not hard since they all want Quebec votes too).
2) Kept JWR in her job;
2) Looked to change the rule on bidding on federal contracts for 10 years if JWR did not agree to use deferred prosecution;

Then he would not be in the mess he is in today.
Canada wouldn't be in this mess if Harper had been truly serious about transparency and left a government behind that was more difficult to corrupt.  I'm betting someone lobbied him into not instituting anything that might meaningfully change the status quo - outlawing in-camera lobbying would probably have gone a long way to doing the trick.

Offline TimG

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #140 on: February 15, 2019, 08:44:01 pm »
Yikes, the clearest evidence that my previous line of argument does not hold up when the details are examined:

Quote
Finally, there is sect. 715.32 (3) of the Code, under the heading “Factors not to consider.” For offences under section 3 or 4 of the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act, it reads — SNC-Lavalin was charged with one count of corruption under sect. 3(1)(b) of the act, along with one count of fraud — “the prosecutor must not consider,” inter alia, “the national economic interest.” (This is not only a matter of domestic law. It is a virtual word-for-word transposition of our obligations under the OECD Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials.)

So its defenders’ stated rationale for sparing SNC-Lavalin from prosecution — the dire consequences for jobs and the economy should the company be convicted, and presumably collapse — is not only economically suspect (SNC-Lavalin is not the only employer in the construction industry, nor would the work for which it has contracted disappear just because the company did) and morally dubious. It’s expressly precluded in law.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-trudeau-and-wilson-raybould-shouldnt-even-have-been-talking-about-snc-lavalin?video_autoplay=true

« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 08:46:41 pm by TimG »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #141 on: February 16, 2019, 01:40:07 am »
Canada wouldn't be in this mess if Harper had been truly serious about transparency and left a government behind that was more difficult to corrupt.  I'm betting someone lobbied him into not instituting anything that might meaningfully change the status quo - outlawing in-camera lobbying would probably have gone a long way to doing the trick.

Yes this is Harper's fault.   ::)

Trudeau legalized marijuana, which was a massive undertaking.  He's had ample time to put through just about any legislation he's wanted that's constitutional (like DPA!).  He's responsible for his own actions.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 02:03:37 am by Poonlight Graham »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #142 on: February 16, 2019, 02:09:42 am »
If the Liberals wanted the DPA, then stand behind it and put it in it's own bill with everyone's name on it who voted for it, instead of being sneaky little rats and cowards and sliding it into an omnibus budget bill.  They take us for fools.

**** Trudeau, and **** the same old Liberals.  You make all my dead relatives who fought for this country in WWII so proud!
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #143 on: February 16, 2019, 04:50:51 am »
Yikes, the clearest evidence that my previous line of argument does not hold up when the details are examined

horseshyte! The independent director of public prosecutions ruled SNC-Lavalin was not eligible for a DPA. Of course, why would that preclude that a-hole Coyne from plying his "SNC-Lavalin defenders" strawman.

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #144 on: February 16, 2019, 05:00:56 am »
**** Trudeau, and **** the same old Liberals.  You make all my dead relatives who fought for this country in WWII so proud!

now that... is a fine testament to your dead fighting relatives!  ;D


Offline eyeball

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #145 on: February 16, 2019, 12:17:59 pm »
Yes this is Harper's fault.   ::)

Trudeau legalized marijuana, which was a massive undertaking.  He's had ample time to put through just about any legislation he's wanted that's constitutional (like DPA!).  He's responsible for his own actions.
The mess Canada is in I said, not Trudeau. Of course he's responsible for his actions.

I'm simply pointing out the responsibility Harper bears for leaving Canada exposed to the consequences of too much opacity in our governance - consequences just like the distracting political brouhaha now unfolding.  How much effort is being expended on dealing with this issue as opposed to investing it on bigger more important things like human rights, environmental issues and the economy?  How much unnecessary drag does this place on our progress as a society?

I suppose one could hope that the way this mess in particular focus' attention on the nexus of power and secrecy at the heart of our democracy will cause Canadians to give pause to consider it as an important reason for the mess we're all in - a reason I think, that's least as big if not more so than the misfortunes of people literally mucking around in it.  I've likened the people we elect into power as being like workers in a publicly owned nuclear plant where its up to us as employers to provide adequate shielding from the harmful effects of radiation so they can do their jobs safely, properly and effectively.  In a governments case that shielding can only come in the form of far more robust institutions of accountability.  We know power corrupts with harmful effects and we need to do more about it, a lot more.

As for Justin Trudeau legalizing marijuana, and as I pointed out earlier, it's ironic that he lauded his father's opportunity to use his influence to ensure his brother didn't have to face a criminal prosecution, and here we are today.  Of course no one but Justin Trudeau is responsible for whatever optics he was aiming for there.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #146 on: February 16, 2019, 12:27:12 pm »
now that... is a fine testament to your dead fighting relatives!  ;D


The real insult to these is that they sacrificed 25% of their GDP fighting tyranny - apparently so their grand-kids could build an economy that's come to depend on tyrannies for who knows how much of our GDP. A lot considering the greasy loopholes we need for squirming around the values and principles our relatives died establishing.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 12:30:33 pm by eyeball »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #147 on: February 16, 2019, 01:01:55 pm »
SNC-Lavalin, a company that employs 9000+ Canadians - a company working to avoid a potential 10-year ban on bidding federal contracts... working to avoid potential harm to its outright viability - imagine... lobbying! The waldo is shocked, shocked I tells ya!

If you or I break the law, we don't get to meet 80 times with the prosecutor's bosses to try to persuade them that taking us to court is a bad idea.

surely, after learning of DPA's, after now realizing their widespread use in the U.S./UK... surely, you're not anti-DPA cause you have an inherent anti-corporate bent? Are there no reasons to consider the value of DPAs - none?

I'm not inherently against DPAs.  I think they could be used in a constructive way. However, I am concerned at the possibility that they could be used as (as some have called it) a "get out of jail free" card.    If they are used the way the brochure describes them-- to spare damage to the employees and shareholders in exchange for putting an actual guilty human being behind bars, then I am all for it.   But if they are used as a way for corrupt companies to let favored companies off the hook, then no. Creating a situation where companies commit crimes, pay some fines, and go on about their business would not be constructive.  Your federal government document discussing DPAs mentions as a potential negative the possibility of DPAs becoming "a cost of doing business".  I am really only for it if it's used to exchange the threat of corporate punishment for information that will put an actual criminal behind bars.


But this scandal is not about DPAs. It's not a scandal that SNC-Lavalin was ruled eligible for a DPA.  It wouldn't have been a scandal if SNC-Lavalin had been offered the chance to get a DPA, either. 

The scandal is that the PMO is alleged to have attempted to interfere in the independence of the attorney general's office.


 -k
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Offline Omni

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #148 on: February 16, 2019, 01:17:12 pm »
Actually the "scandal" as always, arises due to the fact that people like to jump to the conclusion that what is alleged is actually true. As to the DPA issue, I reckon it's not a bad idea in that large corporations such as SNC who employ a lot of people, should have a chance to clean up their act if some of their people go outside the law. But it should be one time only. You **** up again you face the full force of the courts.

Having worked as a manager overseas I had to sit through a classroom session focused on the "foreign corrupt practices act" and then sign off that I had a competent understanding of that law. Some of the places I worked, getting things done, whilst following the letter of that law, was anything but easy.

PS-I'm not writing this from a prison cell.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #149 on: February 16, 2019, 01:59:15 pm »
If you or I break the law, we don't get to meet 80 times with the prosecutor's bosses to try to persuade them that taking us to court is a bad idea.

breaking the law presumes upon conviction - you're ahead of the cart!

say what, "prosecutor's bosses" - who dat? PPSC is independent of the Department of Justice.

and, of course, neither you or I, are national/multi-national corporations... your presumed point is moot!

But this scandal is not about DPAs. It's not a scandal that SNC-Lavalin was ruled eligible for a DPA.  It wouldn't have been a scandal if SNC-Lavalin had been offered the chance to get a DPA, either. 

The scandal is that the PMO is alleged to have attempted to interfere in the independence of the attorney general's office.

uhhh, can you attach scandal to an allegation... well, I mean you can... but is that legitimate? By the by, yes - it is an important constitutional principle that the Attorney General holds independence in deciding whether to prosecute and in making prosecution policy... however, the AJ maintains discretion in making said decisions. Ms. Wilson-Raybould made her decision in Oct 2018... is said to have never brought forward any concerns she might have held in making her decision... and only when Ms. Wilson-Raybould is a part of a Jan 2019 cabinet shuffle does the G&M run with its "anonymous sources".

PPSC policy guideline:



found within the Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook: