Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 7722 times)

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Online TimG

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2019, 06:20:04 am »
Wow.  I feel that this issue stinks even if there's no hard evidence but wow... you defending the govt.  I guess we're actually kind of an objective board here.
Despite what many assume, I am not a partisan. I try to look at each issue rationally and avoid jumping on bandwagons just because everyone else is.

In this case it is important to remember that the decision to prosecute and on what charges can be a political judgement because prosecutors have to consider the public interest. I can't see why the elected government should not have a role is deciding what the public interest is. The current system which makes any such involvement by politicians a matter of public record provides a good defense against politicians using this power to reward friends and punish enemies.

With the SNC-Lavalin case it is not clear what was said and the subsequent demotion of the MOJ is concerning so I agree it stinks. However, the simple fact of the PMO asking about a case and expressing an opinion is not, in itself, wrong. Nor is it wrong for MOJ the to direct prosecutors to use the provisions in the law to to negotiate a settlement wrong provided all of the instructions are in writing and made public. People need to keep these distinctions in mind as we get more information on what exactly happened.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 06:34:28 am by TimG »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2019, 10:09:29 am »
In this case it is important to remember that the decision to prosecute and on what charges can be a political judgement because prosecutors have to consider the public interest. I can't see why the elected government should not have a role is deciding what the public interest is. The current system which makes any such involvement by politicians a matter of public record provides a good defense against politicians using this power to reward friends and punish enemies.

Is there any possible way of making sure that such involvement is part of the public record?

I am also not sold on the notion that letting SNC-Lavalin off with a slap on the wrist is in the public interest. If SNC-Lavalin were the only engineering company in Canada, then maybe one could argue that their corruption at least helped keep Canadians employed. But in the McGill Hospital case, they obtained an edge over their competitors by bribing a McGill official to the tune of 10 million dollars. If SNC gets off with a slap on the wrist for using criminal tactics to win a $1.5 billion contract, clearly the message to their competitors is that they need to start bribing officials too.

The idea that SNC-Lavalin is too important to punish smacks of the "too big to jail" mentality that prevented any of the bad actors in the 2008 financial collapse from facing criminal charges.

With the SNC-Lavalin case it is not clear what was said and the subsequent demotion of the MOJ is concerning so I agree it stinks. However, the simple fact of the PMO asking about a case and expressing an opinion is not, in itself, wrong. Nor is it wrong for MOJ the to direct prosecutors to use the provisions in the law to to negotiate a settlement wrong provided all of the instructions are in writing and made public. People need to keep these distinctions in mind as we get more information on what exactly happened.

And judging from the Andrew Coyne excerpt that was posted earlier in this thread, these provisions in the law that Reybould-Wilson was allegedly pressured to use to "remediate" SNC-Lavalin out of trouble were snuck into an omnibus bill last January.  One can't help wonder if the "remediation" process in itself was invented with the intention of letting SNC-Lavalin escape their legal troubles with just a slap on the wrist.

Circumstances around this whole affair create an appearance of impropriety such that a full and transparent is required to clear the air.

 -k

Online TimG

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2019, 10:33:04 am »
Is there any possible way of making sure that such involvement is part of the public record?
The law requires that any instructions to be published in a Canadian legal journal. People can break the law but that can happen with any law.

I am also not sold on the notion that letting SNC-Lavalin off with a slap on the wrist is in the public interest.
I don't have an opinion on this. I am only thinking of the principles involved. If the Liberals published such directions in a legal journal as required then a reporter/opposition politician could make it a political issue and raise the points that you raise.

IOne can't help wonder if the "remediation" process in itself was invented with the intention of letting SNC-Lavalin escape their legal troubles with just a slap on the wrist.
The US and UK have similar laws already in place so the law is not unreasonable or unusual. Stuffing it in a budget bill makes rotten fish smell good by comparison.

Circumstances around this whole affair create an appearance of impropriety such that a full and transparent is required to clear the air.
Agreed. The only point i wanted to make is that, given what we know so far, it is possible that the government did nothing wrong but we need an open inquiry to determine if this is the case.


Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2019, 10:46:21 am »
But in the McGill Hospital case, they obtained an edge over their competitors by bribing a McGill official to the tune of 10 million dollars. If SNC gets off with a slap on the wrist for using criminal tactics to win a $1.5 billion contract, clearly the message to their competitors is that they need to start bribing officials too.

waldo reminder part-deux:

ms. kimmy... you're confused (again)... that has nothin' to do with, "charges of embezzlement of funds, bribery and other wrongdoing related to contracts SNC had in Libya between 2001 and 2011". Did you actually read the G&M articles you referred to?  :-*
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2019, 10:55:06 am »
I am also not sold on the notion that letting SNC-Lavalin off with a slap on the wrist is in the public interest.

re: Ms. kimmy's declared 'slap on the wrist'..... alleged. Wait, what? Why Canada needs deferred prosecution agreements in our courtrooms

waldo enlightenment: Govt. of Canada public consultation, no less! --- Expanding Canada's toolkit to address corporate wrongdoing: The deferred prosecution agreement stream discussion guide

Quote
About this public consultation

From September 25 to November 17, 2017, the Government of Canada invited Canadians to participate in a discussion and to provide their views on whether it has the right tools in place to address corporate wrongdoing. Submissions were accepted until December 8, 2017 (11:59 pm Pacific time). As part of this engagement, the government consulted with Canadians on potential enhancements to the Integrity Regime and on considerations regarding the possible adoption of a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) regime in Canada. The following discussion paper was designed to guide the public consultations regarding a possible DPA regime in Canada.

Offline John Mark Taylor

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2019, 11:14:29 am »
With the resignation of the concerned minister, this just became far more plausible.  If this is True, the Liberals deserve to lose the next election.
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Online wilber

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2019, 11:27:39 am »
With the resignation of the concerned minister, this just became far more plausible.  If this is True, the Liberals deserve to lose the next election.

The fact she has engaged a retired SCJ to advise her on what she can say certainly points to something interesting.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2019, 11:34:12 am »
With the resignation of the concerned minister, this just became far more plausible.

reason(s) for resignation? As has been well discussed, Ms. Wilson-Raybould has taken significant criticism for her handling of assisted-dying & impaired-driving legislation and her publicly expressed frustrations over the pace/approach of (her) government's handling of so-called 'reconciliation'...

Quote from: Justin Trudeau - Prime Minister of Canada - Feb 11
She {Ms. Wilson-Raybould} confirmed for me a conversation we had this fall, where I told her directly that any decisions on matters involving the director of public prosecutions were hers alone.
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Offline John Mark Taylor

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2019, 11:38:39 am »
reason(s) for resignation? As has been well discussed, Ms. Wilson-Raybould has taken significant criticism for her handling of assisted-dying & impaired-driving legislation and her publicly expressed frustrations over the pace/approach of (her) government's handling of so-called 'reconciliation'...

Riiiiiight.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2019, 11:49:45 am »
Riiiiiight.

SNC-Lavalin did not secure deferred prosecution... so... why resign for not directly/indirectly influencing something that didn't occur? Riiiiiight?
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Online wilber

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2019, 11:56:32 am »
SNC-Lavalin did not secure deferred prosecution... so... why resign for not directly/indirectly influencing something that didn't occur? Riiiiiight?

We don't know the circumstances behind her resignation. There is more going on here than what we know.

If she was pressured to influence something when she was Justice Minister, that is unethical as hell if not criminal, whether or not she actually did anything.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2019, 12:05:44 pm »
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Online wilber

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2019, 12:50:56 pm »


So why would she get advice from a retired SCJ about what she can say, if nothing was said?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2019, 01:32:10 pm »
The fact she has engaged a retired SCJ to advise her on what she can say certainly points to something interesting.
So why would she get advice from a retired SCJ about what she can say, if nothing was said?

as she stated in her resignation letter: to advise her on "topics that I am legally permitted to discuss on this matter." Quite shocking for a lawyer to do so, hey wilberWithBaitedBreath!


by the by, deferred prosecution agreements are everyday, matter-of-fact legal process handling within the U.S./UK... are they a good thing... or not? If not, why not?

do you accept the Oct. 9 ruling by the director of public prosecutions: where SNC-Lavalin was found not eligible for a deferred prosecution agreement - yes or no?
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Offline Omni

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2019, 01:39:41 pm »
Yeah she has stated a desire to speak on the issue but she is also walking a bit of a fine line between private/public citizen. A little counseling on that part of the issue is probably a good idea.