Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 38408 times)

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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1860 on: December 18, 2019, 01:14:11 pm »
SNC-Lavalin pleads guilty to fraud, will pay $280-million fine ... Pre-Christmas present. : )

present? For who? Of course, per norm/standard, corporations admit their guilt as a part of a DPA agreement... and, per norm/standard, a $280 million fine (to be paid over 5 years) could just as easily been a condition of an offered DPA. So, effectively, as the waldo reads, this conviction was a plea agreement (that also dropped all other charges).

in your "present" focus, what would be different in an offered Deferred Prosecution Agreement (DPA) versus this, as reached, Judicial Plea Agreement?
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Offline wilber

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1861 on: December 18, 2019, 03:09:32 pm »
So the same PPSC that said SNC didn't meet the criteria for a DPA, all of a sudden settles for one. Wonder how that happened.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1862 on: December 18, 2019, 03:41:37 pm »
Didn't they fire the Minister of Justice who was objecting?

That's how.

Offline wilber

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1863 on: December 18, 2019, 04:19:09 pm »
Didn't they fire the Minister of Justice who was objecting?

That's how.


The PPSC decided SNC didn't qualify for a DPA. All the minister did was object to the PMO's attempted interference in the PPSC's independence.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1864 on: December 18, 2019, 06:50:33 pm »
So the same PPSC that said SNC didn't meet the criteria for a DPA, all of a sudden settles for one. Wonder how that happened.
Didn't they fire the Minister of Justice who was objecting? That's how.

FFS! This is not a DPA... it's a judicial process conviction - an obvious plea-bargain that resulted in other charges being dismissed. As the waldo highlighted many times throughout this thread, it was stated by 'expert analysis' that it was going to be difficult to prove guilt against the company itself... something that occurred 2 decades previously where many of the {Libyan} players are now dead, can't be forced to comply, etc..

I interpret the PPSC may have proceeded with a plea agreement to ward off what was an in-progress pursuit by SNC-Lavalin to claim the prior ruling was "an abuse of process"... which was in line with the initial judge's ruling that advised this pursuit was available to SNC-Lavalin should it wish to avail itself of it.

Of course, per norm/standard, corporations admit their guilt as a part of a DPA agreement... and, per norm/standard, a $280 million fine (to be paid over 5 years) could just as easily been a condition of an offered DPA. So, effectively, as the waldo reads, this conviction was a plea agreement (that also dropped all other charges).

Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, David Lametti, won't be interfering in the in-progress court case before the Federal Court of Appeal, where SNC-Lavalin presumes to make its case for 'abuse of process' in regards events to-date... a submission was made in that regard a few weeks back with another submission from SNC-Lavalin scheduled for Dec. 20. Some 'experts' suggest testimony given before the Justice Committee has offered avenues for SNC-Lavalin to claim abuse, particularly in terms of the information flow (or in some cases lack therein) between then AG Jody and the DPP. Stay tuned, hey!

bottom line: this plea-agreement results in the same company guilt admission that a DPA typically requires... results in the same absence of a trial that a DPA would have included... and resulted in a like fine amount that had been presumed could be a part of a negotiated DPA. What is missing from the plea agreement undertaking... what a DPA would have allowed for... is the stricter level of oversight company's typically become subject to as a part of meeting their DPA obligations.

St. Jody's truth!  ;D

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1865 on: December 19, 2019, 12:43:01 pm »
bottom line: this plea-agreement results in the same company guilt admission that a DPA typically requires... results in the same absence of a trial that a DPA would have included... and resulted in a like fine amount that had been presumed could be a part of a negotiated DPA. What is missing from the plea agreement undertaking... what a DPA would have allowed for... is the stricter level of oversight company's typically become subject to as a part of meeting their DPA obligations.

JWR voted Yea to bill C-74 on June 6, 2018 but obviously thinks that the courts are a better place to settle these matters. The question is why did she vote for this bill?

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1866 on: December 19, 2019, 11:39:51 pm »
JWR voted Yea to bill C-74 on June 6, 2018 but obviously thinks that the courts are a better place to settle these matters. The question is why did she vote for this bill?

apparently, JWR was for cabinet solidarity... before she was against it!

no - JWR's personal views on the DPA option are most relevant. As Minister of Justice, JWR was responsible for the related bill passages and implementation into the criminal code... notwithstanding, again, her inability/apparent unwillingness to provide input to and answer questions relevant to the related Senate review of the bill particulars. Knowing that personal view (as Minister of Justice), would offer perspective & insight into JWRs AJ positions taken for cases involving the possibility of remediation agreements. On the broader level this is germane to cabinet solidarity and support for the government's mandate and direction. Again, if a Minister is not in agreement with a government position and related legislation... does not support it... political convention holds the Minister should resign.



and not to forget board members who were so concerned about the DPA legislation being "buried... hidden"... in the omnibus C-74 bill:

It was deliberately passed in a hidden manner so it could not be discussed.
To see just how cowardly Trudeau was and how he slipped in the Criminal Code amendment you will have to go to:

https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/LegislativeSummaries/421C74E

no - you (and others) keep nattering on about, 'hidden within an omnibus bill'... squawk***no debate***squawk!!! As I've stated previously, several times,nothing was "hidden". Again, as I replied to you:
=> Public Consultation
background; consultation particulars:
- About the consultation: Expanding Canada's toolkit to address corporate wrongdoing

- {per member Impact} summary report: Expanding Canada’s toolkit to address corporate wrongdoing: What we heard

=> Senate Review: Senate Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs - Bill C-74 Division 20 of Part 6 (note: non-related to DPA, Div. 15 also included in same meetings, process, review, etc..)
- https://sencanada.ca/en/Content/Sen/Committee/421/LCJC/44ev-54092-e
- https://sencanada.ca/en/Content/Sen/Committee/421/LCJC/45ev-54117-e
- https://sencanada.ca/en/Content/Sen/Committee/421/LCJC/45ev-54128-e
note: again, the Minister responsible for this related DPA legislation was JWR - Senators tried unsuccessfully to have JWR appear for input/questioning over the 2-week period allotted... resulting in a formal observation point that denotes Senators "displeasure" with JWR's (lack of) participation & response.

but there's more Rue... more! The House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights examined it and unanimously approved it - the Vice-Chair of the Committee at that time was CPC MP Rob Nicholson... who stated on behalf of the CPC, "We're completely supportive of it"

still "hidden" Rue, still?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 11:44:00 pm by waldo »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1867 on: December 20, 2019, 12:11:11 am »
JWR voted Yea to bill C-74 on June 6, 2018 but obviously thinks that the courts are a better place to settle these matters. The question is why did she vote for this bill?

The idea that Deferred Prosecution Agreements are a potentially valid and useful tool is not mutually exclusive to the idea that SNC-Lavalin just didn't qualify for one.

Also keep in mind that JWR was not the one who decided that SNC-Lavalin didn't qualify for a DPA.  That decision was made by the Public Prosecution Service.

JWR wasn't turfed from the position of AG because she wouldn't grant SNC-Lavalin a DPA.  She was turfed because she wouldn't overrule the public prosecutors who decided that SNC-Lavalin didn't qualify for a DPA.

 -k
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1868 on: December 20, 2019, 12:32:17 am »
The idea that Deferred Prosecution Agreements are a potentially valid and useful tool is not mutually exclusive to the idea that SNC-Lavalin just didn't qualify for one.

Also keep in mind that JWR was not the one who decided that SNC-Lavalin didn't qualify for a DPA.  That decision was made by the Public Prosecution Service.

JWR wasn't turfed from the position of AG because she wouldn't grant SNC-Lavalin a DPA.  She was turfed because she wouldn't overrule the public prosecutors who decided that SNC-Lavalin didn't qualify for a DPA.

Justice Committee testimony showed it was St. Jody who blocked information flow... notwithstanding her mega-ethical lapse in taping the Privy Council clerk without his knowledge. As the ever astute member waldo suggested, the sudden prosecution shift to seek a plea-agreement... just days before SNC-Lavalin was scheduled to present its 2nd submission in support of its claim of, "an abuse of process"... is telling.

and by the by, the initial decision was to offer a DPA... which was overruled by the Director... because??? Perhaps member kimmy can fill in the knowledge gap here, yes?

JWR was wholly incompetent in her job - this thread includes many examples of that separate from anything to do with this DPA concern. The latest showcase of just how she handled and behaved over the office-space is a case-in-point in her self-serving {believed} entitlement. In any case, Ministers regularly shift portfolios... I trust the now independent MP can survive in her new office... and that she'll be able to cope in sharing a washroom with other MPs!  ;D 

the rest of your revisionism was quite handily dispatched throughout this thread!

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1869 on: December 20, 2019, 12:39:20 am »
FFS! This is not a DPA... it's a judicial process conviction - an obvious plea-bargain that resulted in other charges being dismissed. As the waldo highlighted many times throughout this thread, it was stated by 'expert analysis' that it was going to be difficult to prove guilt against the company itself... something that occurred 2 decades previously where many of the {Libyan} players are now dead, can't be forced to comply, etc..

"2 decades previously"?  SNC Lavalin's criminal misconduct in regard to Libya continued up to as recently as 2011, but why let the facts get in the way of your shameless attempts to spin on behalf of this disgusting criminal corporation?

I interpret the PPSC may have proceeded with a plea agreement to ward off what was an in-progress pursuit by SNC-Lavalin to claim the prior ruling was "an abuse of process"... which was in line with the initial judge's ruling that advised this pursuit was available to SNC-Lavalin should it wish to avail itself of it.

Baseless speculation, pulled straight out of your waldo!

The notion that SNC-Lavalin was entitled to a DPA, or that they were "abused" by the prosecutors' decision to not grant them one, was a fiction promoted by Mr Bruce to advance his absurd narrative that they were the victims in all of this.

bottom line: this plea-agreement results in the same company guilt admission that a DPA typically requires... results in the same absence of a trial that a DPA would have included... and resulted in a like fine amount that had been presumed could be a part of a negotiated DPA. What is missing from the plea agreement undertaking... what a DPA would have allowed for... is the stricter level of oversight company's typically become subject to as a part of meeting their DPA obligations.

St. Jody's truth!  ;D

That you interpret this result as a vindication for Team Trudeau is proof of just how deep in the Party Kool-Aid you are.

This result demonstrates that the prosecutors and the company could have come to an equitable result without the blatantly unethical political interference from Trudeau and Butts and their little helpers in the PMO.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1870 on: December 20, 2019, 12:54:20 am »
Justice Committee testimony showed it was St. Jody who blocked information flow... notwithstanding her mega-ethical lapse in taping the Privy Council clerk without his knowledge. As the ever astute member waldo suggested, the sudden prosecution shift to seek a plea-agreement... just days before SNC-Lavalin was scheduled to present its 2nd submission in support of its claim of, "an abuse of process"... is telling.

lol

Are there any actual experts who think SNC's complaint is anything other than posturing?

and by the by, the initial decision was to offer a DPA... which was overruled by the Director... because??? Perhaps member kimmy can fill in the knowledge gap here, yes?

The waldo presumes that the Director of Public Prosecution doesn't know how to do her job? I suppose we're to believe Ms Roussel is just as incompetent as we're to believe JWR is. I thought Liberals loved our esteemed professionals in the public service.  The waldo apparently prefers to put his stock in the op-ed writers that Ms Telford lined up to advance the PMO narrative.

JWR was wholly incompetent in her job - this thread includes many examples of that separate from anything to do with this DPA concern. The latest showcase of just how she handled and behaved over the office-space is a case-in-point in her self-serving {believed} entitlement. In any case, Ministers regularly shift portfolios... I trust the now independent MP can survive in her new office... and that she'll be able to cope in sharing a washroom with other MPs!  ;D 

The ongoing character assassination by Liberals against one of their own colleagues only started when the G&M story came to light, which is telling.  Funny that we never heard any talk about how "incompetent" she was during the 3 years she remained in that position, even as other Cabinet colleagues were shuffled around.

the rest of your revisionism was quite handily dispatched throughout this thread!

Funny but no.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1871 on: December 20, 2019, 01:03:37 am »
c'mon member kimmy - admit the plea agreement reached results in like... no less... than what an offered DPA would have secured? St. Jody's truth can't help you here!
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1872 on: December 20, 2019, 01:29:46 am »
This result demonstrates that the prosecutors and the company could have come to an equitable result without the blatantly unethical political interference from Trudeau and Butts and their little helpers in the PMO.

as you said, baseless speculation pulled out of YOUR AZZ!

as the ever astute waldo surmised, the prosecution did not want to take this to trial... the fact they dropped (stayed) the majority of charges (including Corruption) is a testimony to just how weak their case MUST HAVE BEEN! Of course it was the ALLEGED corruption that was believed to be behind the PPSC decision not to offer a DPA. And now... that alleged corruption charge was stayed! Wassup with that, hey member kimmy!  ;D

in your fantasy world, your stated, "disgusting criminal corporation" wording, is probably the most telling words you've used here. Protip: your kimmy's cubicle world job doesn't lend itself to recognize/appreciate just what an international corporation of the likes of SNC-Lavalin is about... the many, many divisions that makeup the company, the thousands of world-wide employees bringing leading products/solutions/services forward. In this particular hyped example with Libya, there were a handful of rogue execs (bad men, very bad men) who can't be excused for their crimes... but shouldn't be used as a representation of the company proper. If you'd like a replay, the waldo can quote prior posts that showed the significant internal measures the company took towards changing its processes to ensure, for example, more complete transparency between divisions and executive levels.

... your shameless attempts to spin on behalf of this disgusting criminal corporation?
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1873 on: December 20, 2019, 01:51:17 am »
The ongoing character assassination by Liberals against one of their own colleagues only started when the G&M story came to light, which is telling.  Funny that we never heard any talk about how "incompetent" she was during the 3 years she remained in that position, even as other Cabinet colleagues were shuffled around.

the waldo can replay those failures for you... if you'd like. She never had the qualifications for the job in the first place - many legal experts have stated as much. She was simply a gender assignment; one that also happened to include indigenous attachment. This is nothing new! The waldo has stated many times this was not an appropriate selection. Those glaring failures are a testimony to just that - and as I said, watching JWR implode over the office-space fiasco was gold, real gold! Perhaps member kimmy would like to put some spin around this, hey? Wait, let the waldo help you here:
oh my! The entitledOne, St. Jody... spreading more of her "truth"!  ;D

New Speaker says he'll evict Wilson-Raybould if she doesn't leave willingly
just makin' a land claim... one play of the 'I' card... one smudge at a time!  ;D

and then we have indigenous journalist, Niigaan Sinclair, talking up the "marginalization of indigenous woman and the symbolism of removing JWR from territory"!

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1874 on: December 28, 2019, 04:57:53 pm »
This result demonstrates that the prosecutors and the company could have come to an equitable result without the blatantly unethical political interference from Trudeau and Butts and their little helpers in the PMO.
as you said, baseless speculation pulled out of YOUR AZZ!

No.  If I had written that before the plea agreement was reached, it would have been baseless speculation. But since I wrote it after the plea agreement was reached, it's merely remarking upon an observable fact:
 * AG Lametti says that the government was not involved in reaching the plea agreement between SNC and the public prosecution.
 * An agreement has been reached that all parties consider equitable.
THEREFORE: government involvement was not required to reach an equitable deal.

The Prime Minister himself said that if he'd known things would work out this well, he'd have acted much differently.

as the ever astute waldo surmised, the prosecution did not want to take this to trial... the fact they dropped (stayed) the majority of charges (including Corruption) is a testimony to just how weak their case MUST HAVE BEEN! Of course it was the ALLEGED corruption that was believed to be behind the PPSC decision not to offer a DPA. And now... that alleged corruption charge was stayed! Wassup with that, hey member kimmy!  ;D

Hey, if the prosecution's case was so weak, why did SNC make a plea bargain at all? Why shell out $280 million if the prosecution had no case?  Why did SNC-Lavalin go to such lengths to get a DPA if the prosecution had no case? Is SNC-Lavalin's legal counsel so incompetent that they caused their employer to waste $280 million  on a case they would have won in court? I can only imagine how deeply SNC-Lavalin regrets that they didn't hire you as their legal advisor, rather than whichever incompetent goofs they hired to get this plea agreement done.

Of course, as the ever-astute waldo presumes to know the Director of Prosecution's job better than she does, presumes to know the Ethics Commissioner's job better than he does, it should be no surprise that the ever-astute waldo also believes he knows SNC-Lavalin's lawyer's job better than they do.

in your fantasy world, your stated, "disgusting criminal corporation" wording, is probably the most telling words you've used here. Protip: your kimmy's cubicle world job doesn't lend itself to recognize/appreciate just what an international corporation of the likes of SNC-Lavalin is about... the many, many divisions that makeup the company, the thousands of world-wide employees bringing leading products/solutions/services forward. In this particular hyped example with Libya, there were a handful of rogue execs (bad men, very bad men) who can't be excused for their crimes... but shouldn't be used as a representation of the company proper. If you'd like a replay, the waldo can quote prior posts that showed the significant internal measures the company took towards changing its processes to ensure, for example, more complete transparency between divisions and executive levels.

As we've observed a revolving door of executives go from the corner offices of SNC Lavalin to the courtrooms, it becomes clear that this wasn't "a few rogue executives", it was a rogue culture. Testimony in these trials revealed a corporation that was willing to turn a blind eye to these "rogue executives" and their doings.

c'mon member kimmy - admit the plea agreement reached results in like... no less... than what an offered DPA would have secured? St. Jody's truth can't help you here!

The kimmo reminds the waldo that the degree of punishment that SNC deserved was never the real scandal here, rather the PMO's unethical efforts to interfere in public prosecution to get a politically advantageous result.  Trying to justify the PMO's actions in terms of the eventual plea deal SNC accepted is just more of your galloping-goalposts shenanigans, and not many here are dumb enough to fall for that stuff.

the waldo can replay those failures for you... if you'd like. She never had the qualifications for the job in the first place - many legal experts have stated as much. She was simply a gender assignment; one that also happened to include indigenous attachment. This is nothing new! The waldo has stated many times this was not an appropriate selection. Those glaring failures are a testimony to just that - and as I said, watching JWR implode over the office-space fiasco was gold, real gold! Perhaps member kimmy would like to put some spin around this, hey?

I can't imagine why you think a squabble over seating arrangements vindicates the PMO's unethical behavior either.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
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