Author Topic: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal  (Read 27435 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1575 on: April 23, 2019, 11:55:14 am »
The same reason your comment above is. Do you want to continue to bait or walk away Omni?

Lol. Are you that in need of continued responses from me?

So neither activity then. Good. I'll leave you to it.
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Offline Rue

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1576 on: April 23, 2019, 04:38:26 pm »
hey brainiac! What do you think the Convention is based upon?  ;D You referring to those guidelines as "directives" is one of the stoopider statements you've made in a while. Again, the very fact the OECD raised concerns (over 2 decades now, starting in 1999) over Canada's conviction record for foreign bribery shows the OECD has no enforcement and/or sanction ability against counties it presumes to "raise concerns with". And you called them "directives"! Oh my!

but hey now - let's see you weasel out from the following - which raises your failure bar well beyond the nonsense you earlier tried to peddle when you stated DPAs were exceptionally rare in the U.S.. Per the OECD's own analysis/study just released weeks ago now:, "Of the 890 cases concluded under the Anti-Bribery Convention to date, close to 80% have been through non-trial resolutions."



You again switched the wording to something else yet again that is not a guideline or a policy.  In response to your latest documents I have never argued dpa's or plea bargains can never be used in all  bribery cases and neither has the OECD nor did I say the OECD argued dpa's should never be used in any and all bribery cases..

What the OECD has stated and I pointed out and is evidenced in all its communications is its  on-going concern and continuing debate and discussion since 1997 in regards to bribery of foreign officials  and the  serious ethical concerns, and undermining of  global economic development the OECD fears is the result of bribing foreign government officials.

As I referenced, In 1997, the OECD issued a convention to address foreign bribery, which all of its members and eight additional countries  signed, agreeing to make foreign bribery a criminal offence under their respective domestic laws. Canada was and remains one of those signatories and, in 1999, enacted the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act. That is the legislation under which SNC-Lavalin has been criminally charged and is the specific legislation when a company is charged under it, is excluded from dpa consideration. You refuse to acknowledge that legal fact and reality.

As I have stated, the OECD, myself, and many others opposed to using a dpa in the Lavalin case do recognize that non-trial resolutions, which include not just dpa's but all forms of plea bargaining might be appropriate to resolve certain criminal cases or  economic crime cases, including foreign bribery ones.  No one has argued it should never be used as you now try to misrepresent. The paper you show makes a point I have never disagreed with nor did I suggest is the OECD's position on all dpa's. I have also repeated numerous times to you and Omni that dpa's and plea bargaining are at times appropriate, just not in this specific instance of Lavalin. Take a look at how for example Britain used a dpa in the Rolls Royce case. There is sufficient difference between the two cases I would suggest for you to try understand why a dpa might have been appropriate in that case but not Lavalin. You are trying to argue a one size fits all approach and that either dpa's are used or they are not used. Dpa's are determined by the unique characteristics of each case and so in some cases could be appropriate and in others inappropriate. That is the reason a prosecutor is legally mandated to go through the preconditions, considerations and prohibition against national economic interest as a public policy consideration. Those are the tests or questions a prosecutor will ask themselves to determine if the dpa fits their case. The AG and DPP did and were satisified it did not meet the test of appropriateness and because this disagrees with your political partisan support of Trudeau, you want it changed.


The debate all along which you once again try to deflect from that is in the specific case of Lavalin it was felt  in appropriate b y the AG and DPP  because of their review of the  considerations and precoditiions and prohibitionary wording in the dpa law including the wording that states charges under the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act make it inappropriate to use a dpa. That is what both the AG and DPP said as much as you try engage me in inflammatory comments that I claim to speak for the AG or DPP.  I do not. I speak for myself but I most certainly agree and support their conclusions not to use the dpa as many do. That does not make many any more a claimed spokesperson for them than you are for Trudeau or Wernick or Butt or Omni.

It should also be noted and is something you have refused to respond to is that  any out of court settlement to  limit the negative impacts on Lavalin employees was and remains speculative as it has never been proven to be a consideration worthy of economic analysis by Trudeau.

Claiming the need Lavalin employees to make money is the paramount concern in this case would necessariy  enable them to profit from bribery and Lavalin to profit from bribery and therefore incentivize other corporate wrongdoers not just Lavalin to use dpa's to avoid responsibility for what they have done.

There is also a concern the dpa's would by placing the Lavalin profit needs and the profit needs of its employees as the paramount concern, place the economic interests of Canada before the moral harm done by undermining democracy let alone financing war criminals and terrorists.

There is also concern the use of a dpa would prevent meaningful evidence from coming to the public's attention concerning the extent of bribery and whether current Canadian mp's are part of this bribery.
 
In the Rolls Royce case, which is the closest case to Lavalin, there was no bribing of a war criminal-terrorist, no intervention by a government elected representative on behalf of the accused and most importantly, Rolls Royce had to agree to pay back all the money it earned from its bribing schemes which Lavalin has stated it will not do. So to even use that case and say consider it would not be possible as it is too different.

I would argue had Lavalin not bribed a war-criminal terrorist and offered to pay back all money earned from its bribes and did not build a prison used to commit war crimes and terror, and had Lavalin not used the Prime Minister to lobby and had approached the prosecutor directly, there could very well have been a plea bargain. That plea bargain though would have required a Judge's approval and a necessary pro-rated increase in sentence to reflect on it being a third time offence.

Interestingly Waldo you threw out a meaningless 80% statistic. None of those 80% of dpa's you  called out, dealt with a situation where the elected leader of a nation, intervened in the on-going criminal trial to lobby on behalf of the accused to get the prosecutor to use one or involved the bribing of a war criminal terrorist or building of a prison used to torture people. Never.

In fact you were told, go find a case like Lavalin where a dpa was used. You claim there are so many dpa's in use but of course you can not find one used in a situation even closet to Lavalin's.

You can't because none exist.

As I told you in the US there are about 40 dpa's used a year. You insist this is significant use of dpa's. I asked you, add up all the cases in the US and come up with the percentage of cases those 40 a year represent. You did not. You did not because if you did you would know of the thousands of cases across the US its only used sparingly and thus about 40 times a year and this constitutes a fraction of 1% of all trials.

You would also know the US does not use the dpa's only in white collar crime cases let alone bribery cases and has never used one where the government official bribed was a war criminal-terrorist. You would also know that using  dpa's or plea bargaining are not the issue, when to use them is.

You should  also now Australia has not used any yet and like New Zealand is debating when use of dpa's would be appropriate. You would also know the UK has only used them 4 times and in each of its cases no war criminal terrorists were bribed and no government elected representative ever lobbied to the prosecutor to use one and it to continues to debate when to use them.

In all your responses to me Waldo you have refused to discuss the moral and ethical issues associated with bribery and dpa's let alone of bribing war criminal-terrorists. Of course you haven't. All you could do is say well what Trudeau did was legal and avoid discussing the moral and ethical issues because you have no possible method to argue bribery let alone of war-criminal terrorists is acceptable behaviour we want our governments condoning and that is why you and Omni lowered yourself to childish remarks to me. You compensate for having no moral grounds for your positions.

The  issue you hide from is bribery..

Back in 2011, Transparency International, a non profit organization  carried out a survey of businesspeople in 30 countries worldwide(cite:http://blog.transparency.org/2012/09/06/bribery-is-bad-for-business/)  and  asked between 82 and 114 businesspeople from each of these countries for their views of corruption and anti-corruption.  The results from that survey  found that 27 per cent, or more than one in four businesspeople surveyed thought  that they had lost business in the last 12 months due to bribery.

As responsible citizens living in a context that deals with not just constituents in Trudeau's riding but people of many countries, what the above and common sense tells us is that  bribery undermines contracts awarded by merit and aids and abets corrupt systems of government that prevent democratic trade and political practices. That cost is real and something Waldo in your short sighted blind partisan support for Trudeau you are not willing to concede or acknowledge so much so you relish insulting me personally for having brought it to your attention.

I teach Global Trade Law, International Law, and Immigration law and I have explained to my students and most of us get it-that any company that wants to do business globally wants a fair competitive chance and we want our governments to help us  get this chance. We see countries getting together and working through organizations such as the OECD and World Trade Organization to try harmonize business conduct and create a fair and level playing field for all companies in all countries.

In that sense for you or anyone to condone rewarding bribery simply because people are employed by that bribery in Trudeau's riding  makes no moral or ethical sense and of course we should ask does it make legal sense. Should anyone profit from their crimes for any reason? How will condoning what Lavalin does impact on Canada's reputation? These are concerns you won't acknowledge.

Well also  know Omni's answer to fundamental moral issues and Liberal partisan politics. . He came on this form and applauded giving Omar Kadr $10 million and denied Omar Kadr had dirty hands and profited from crime and thought it acceptable Trudeau made a back room deal to avoid a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada to determine whether any amount of financial reward given Kadr  violated the well known rule of law that one should not profit from crime, i.e., have dirty hands.

Now we see again the two of you Liberal partisans argue that  Trudeau can violate the rule of law and use his office to pressure a prosecutor in an on-going legal proceeding to drop a trial and use the absurd pretext that the needs of Trudeau's constituents to profit from a crime come before the needs of the victims of those bribes.

It should not surprise anyone to see the two of you support a regime that shows contempt for the rule of law and basic fundamental principles of morality and justice or your continuing  flippant remarks that an AG can act in a political vacuum and ignore the mandatory considerations the law requires them to consider.

This 80% figure you threw out do you even know what that means Waldo? Never has the OECD or the US or Britain (who have only issued 4 dpa's) ever used a dpa for a company that bribed a war criminal terrorist. None of those 80% you threw out ever resulted from a Prime Minister or any elected official interfering with a criminal proceeding and demanding one be imposed on behalf of the criminal.


So yes   I see you continue to throw more papers out of their context at me hoping to deflect from the deficiencies of your previous comments but none address the issues I have raised or the Lavalin scandal has raised.

So I tell you what Waldo, as I said to Omni,  I won't respond further to you  and that will make it easier on you to ignore me.  Please feel free to respond further and call me a liar, brainiac.. I appreciate why you feel the need to do so and hope this facilitates your ability to continue responding.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1577 on: April 23, 2019, 04:47:29 pm »
None of those 80% of dpa's you  called out, dealt with a situation where the elected leader of a nation, intervened in the on-going criminal trial to lobby on behalf of the accused to get the prosecutor to use one or involved the bribing of a war criminal terrorist or building of a prison used to torture people. Never.

Are you implying that Trudeau intervened in a criminal trial?
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1578 on: April 23, 2019, 05:01:20 pm »
So I tell you what Waldo, as I said to Omni,

you forced my hand - you caused the, as you say, "grinning black man" to be called back!  ;D



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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1579 on: April 23, 2019, 05:09:45 pm »
So I tell you what Waldo, as I said to Omni,  I won't respond further to you  and that will make it easier on you to ignore me.
Lol. Are you that in need of continued responses from me?
You need to dialogue with someone else now Waldo.

admit you're a troll or fess-up... you just can't get enough of the waldo kickin' your azz!
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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1580 on: April 23, 2019, 05:20:10 pm »
Please stop with the word counter - it's been reported more than once in the past and I have deleted all but one example in the past, and serves no useful purpose.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1581 on: April 23, 2019, 05:24:06 pm »
Please stop with the word counter - it's been reported more than once in the past and I have deleted all but one example in the past, and serves no useful purpose.

so... you're fine with a member writing mega-voluminous screeds... that multiple members have called the guy out on... that simply serve to bury actual discussion? Is that what you're saying?

and the, as the guy calls it, "grinning black man" has and does serve a purpose... it actually did temper the guy and he started to write "more" concisely and "more" directly. But hey, that only lasted a very short while!

waldo notice: unless the guy stops with the voluminous screeds, the, as he calls it, "grinning black man" will return each and every time he writes another one. If you don't like it - do something about it... or ban me. Your choice.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 05:30:48 pm by waldo »
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Offline JMT

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1582 on: April 23, 2019, 05:29:40 pm »
so... you're fine with a member writing mega-voluminous screeds... that multiple members have called the guy out on... that simply serve to bury actual discussion? Is that what you're saying?

and the, as the guy calls it, "grinning black man" has and does serve a purpose... it actually did temper the guy and he started to write "more" concisely and "more" directly. But hey, that only lasted a very short while!

What I'll suggest is that if you have a problem with a post, report it, and I'll deal with it.  I'm simply passing on the message that the community doesn't seem to find the word counter to be acceptable.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1583 on: April 23, 2019, 05:31:50 pm »
What I'll suggest is that if you have a problem with a post, report it, and I'll deal with it.  I'm simply passing on the message that the community doesn't seem to find the word counter to be acceptable.

you missed my edit: "waldo notice: unless the guy stops with the voluminous screeds, the, as he calls it, "grinning black man" will return each and every time he writes another one. If you don't like it - do something about it... or ban me. Your choice."
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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1584 on: April 23, 2019, 06:36:14 pm »
Is that Jean Luc Picard in the backseat?

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1585 on: April 23, 2019, 09:14:08 pm »
5 pages of the Waldo and Rue show....    I just sent an email to Charles begging him to let me back!
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Offline Omni

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1586 on: April 23, 2019, 09:18:04 pm »
5 pages of the Waldo and Rue show....    I just sent an email to Charles begging him to let me back!

I wouldn't hold your breath, the furher is on a bit of a rampage yet again over at red neck ville.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1587 on: April 23, 2019, 09:21:10 pm »
5 pages of the Waldo and Rue show....    I just sent an email to Charles begging him to let me back!
I find waldo's habit of posting images instead of text or his random memes are much more annoying that Rue's lengthy posts. Perhaps I will respond with a 'grinning black man' any time waldo does that.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1588 on: April 23, 2019, 11:24:48 pm »
I find waldo's habit of posting images instead of text or his random memes are much more annoying that Rue's lengthy posts. Perhaps I will respond with a 'grinning black man' any time waldo does that.

no worries - I'd suggest I'll return in kind any time you showcase your denier-self in any climate-change related thread/post... I'd suggest that but that would become an almost full-time effort and I only have so little time to further waste with this, as the bigMod states, "community" - but hey now, bring it! Clearly, said "community" is more interested in wailing/whining to a moderator about a word-counting graphic rather than calling out the member and his voluminous screeds in the first place.

voluminous screeds that, on several occasions, I've actually taken the time to attempt to separate out any semi-legible content and isolate that content to small targeted replies... which were then simply ignored. That Gish Gallop routine is what the guy lives for... buries himself in... and later insists he's posted something that no one has actually bothered to read. That routine is what the guy hides behind. He certainly doesn't want to isolate his posts/replies to concise and precisely targeted points for discussion/argument - why do that when he can write multi-thousand word tirades!
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Offline waldo

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Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
« Reply #1589 on: April 23, 2019, 11:26:28 pm »
5 pages of the Waldo and Rue show....    I just sent an email to Charles begging him to let me back!

sure squiggy! Just admit you're the face of said "community" wailing/whining to the bigMod here about a word-counter graphic - sure you will.  ;D
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