Author Topic: The Trudeau Brand  (Read 91187 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1185 on: March 01, 2021, 05:05:57 pm »
Of course they can set standards and conditions for the transfers.

Right but they can't force any province to implement any program.  They can just say "we'll give you money if you spend it on a program you create that has X, Y, and Z". 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 05:09:41 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1186 on: March 01, 2021, 06:08:41 pm »
Right but they can't force any province to implement any program.  They can just say "we'll give you money if you spend it on a program you create that has X, Y, and Z".

I suppose they would need provincial agreement, although if a province refuses, the Feds may be able to implement something still.  “It depends”.

But it would take a special kind of idiot to decline national funding for a pharmacare program at no cost to the province and have your province’s drug prices significantly more than the province next door. 
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Offline waldo

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1187 on: March 02, 2021, 12:20:14 am »
Feds can transfer money but can they force provinces to implement federal programs without their consent?  I very much doubt that.
The feds just can't ram something through, the provinces would need to be on board, and from what it seems the provinces would need to implement their own programs and the feds could help fund them.

what's with the gorgeous strawman, hey! You're the only one talking about, 'federal government forcing'... 'without provincial consent'... 'feds ramming something through'... etc.. Try reading the following that speaks of a cooperative working relationship between the federal government and the provinces... of a partnership between the federal government and the provinces... of not imposing a political decision from the federal government...

Quote from: Justin Trudeau, Prime Minister of Canada
The NDP are pulling a political stunt to try to demonstrate that it could do it with the wave of a magic wand. We work in the real world here. No Canadian should have to make a choice between buying medication and putting food on the table. We will therefore continue to work towards national universal pharmacare. We will do so in respect of the Constitution and in partnership with the provinces and not impose a political decision from Ottawa. We believe in partnership as the path forward.

as I highlighted earlier, to implement Universal Pharmacare for Canadians, the Advisory Council on the Implementation of National Pharmacare is recommending a vehicle separate and distinct from the Canada Health Act; is recommending:
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Ottawa work with provinces and territories on a pharmacare system reflecting the five principles of: public, portable, comprehensive, universal, and accessible. The report also recommended the federal government “enshrine the principles and national standards of pharmacare in federal legislation, separate and distinct from the Canada Health Act, to demonstrate its ongoing commitment to partnership on national pharmacare and provide for a dedicated funding arrangement.”

so telling when Gorgeous resorts to plying yet another strawman!  ;D


Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1188 on: March 02, 2021, 12:32:21 am »
I suppose they would need provincial agreement, although if a province refuses, the Feds may be able to implement something still.  “It depends”.

How does it "depend"?  The feds can't implement a healthcare program on the provinces without their consent.  What is this "something" you speak of?

What seems most likely is something like universal healthcare programs in the provinces, possibly with federal funding help via transfers.  The feds have a useful role in bulk buying of meds and can set some standards like healthcare.  Feds and provinces can certainly work together on some things but getting them all to agree and having a national program seems unlikely.  Some if not many provinces might give up on some points in exchange for funding, but again not without provincial consent.  And like usual, with Alberta who knows, they might tell the feds to get bent, while Atlantic Canada would probably take anything they could get.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1189 on: March 02, 2021, 12:42:39 am »
what's with the gorgeous strawman, hey! You're the only one talking about, 'federal government forcing'... 'without provincial consent'... 'feds ramming something through'... etc.. Try reading the following that speaks of a cooperative working relationship between the federal government and the provinces... of a partnership between the federal government and the provinces... of not imposing a political decision from the federal government..

Well, good luck to the Liberals.  Believe it when I see it.

Pretty sure nobody needs to choose between food and medications right now per Trudeau.  Provinces have their own drug coverage insurance plans that helps anyone of any income level from going broke due to drug costs, at least in my province.  If you're low income you pay a small deductible, a few hundred dollars a year, then the gov pays the rest, again at least in my neck of the woods.  If you make more money you pay a larger deductive depending on your income, but either way nobody is going broke just because you have 20 grand in expensive drugs.
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Offline waldo

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1190 on: March 02, 2021, 12:52:30 pm »
Pretty sure nobody needs to choose between food and medications right now per Trudeau.  Provinces have their own drug coverage insurance plans that helps anyone of any income level from going broke due to drug costs, at least in my province.  If you're low income you pay a small deductible, a few hundred dollars a year, then the gov pays the rest, again at least in my neck of the woods.  If you make more money you pay a larger deductive depending on your income, but either way nobody is going broke just because you have 20 grand in expensive drugs.

its not, as you say, "per Trudeau"... that comes directly from the final report/recommendations of the Advisory Council on the Implementation of National Pharmacare; specifically, facts & key recommendations:

- Canadians spent $34 billion on prescription medicines in 2018
- On a per capita basis, only the United States and Switzerland spend more on medicines
- One in five Canadians struggle to pay for their prescription medicines. Three million don’t fill their prescriptions because they can’t afford to. One million Canadians cut spending on food and heat to be able to afford their medicine
- Canada is the only country in the world with universal health care that does not provide universal coverage for prescription drugs
- Universal, single-payer public pharmacare will provide access to prescribed medicines for all Canadians, including the estimated one in five who are either uninsured or underinsured.
- A national formulary will ensure the same medicines are offered right across Canada.
- The Council is recommending that pharmacare be portable for Canadians wherever they travel or live within Canada; that there be a separate pathway, with dedicated funding, for expensive drugs for rare diseases; and that the approval process for drugs be further streamlined so Canadians can get faster access to new, innovative drugs.
- Universal, single-payer public pharmacare will result in better value for money and substantial savings for governments, businesses, and individual Canadians.
- Once implemented, pharmacare’s stronger negotiating power, lower administrative costs, as well as other improvements will save taxpayers an estimated $5 billion annually. Savings for individual Canadians and their families will be significant and tangible. Canadian families will save, on average, $350 per year. Pharmacare will also provide businesses with much-needed relief from the high and growing cost of prescription drug insurance. The average business owner who provides drug coverage will save over $750 annually per employee.
- The Council recommends that Canadians and employers continue to be able to purchase private drug insurance as a form of supplementary insurance to national pharmacare.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1191 on: March 02, 2021, 01:48:46 pm »
- Canadians spent $34 billion on prescription medicines in 2018
- On a per capita basis, only the United States and Switzerland spend more on medicines

Spending out of pocket, or total spending?  Does this include money the government spends on drugs through insurance programs?  I think the feds have an important role in bulk buying of drugs through negotiating lower prices with drug companies, but you don't need a national pharmacare plan to do this because we already do it.

Quote
- One in five Canadians struggle to pay for their prescription medicines. Three million don’t fill their prescriptions because they can’t afford to. One million Canadians cut spending on food and heat to be able to afford their medicine

If provinces have government drug plans available to everyone, why is this still happening?  Is it lack of knowledge that these plans even exist?  Are some provinces dropping the ball?

Quote
- Universal, single-payer public pharmacare will provide access to prescribed medicines for all Canadians, including the estimated one in five who are either uninsured or underinsured.

Nobody in this country should be under-insured.  There are public insurance plans available.  Why is this happening?  Just because you're uninsured that doesn't mean you're struggling.  You could be a wealthy business owner and not have insurance and you're doing fine paying for drugs out of pocket.  In my province you can't go broke from drug costs unless there's an expensive drug that's somehow now covered by the public plan, which is no different from a national pharmacare plan.

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- Universal, single-payer public pharmacare will result in better value for money and substantial savings for governments, businesses, and individual Canadians.

Why and how?

Quote
- Once implemented, pharmacare’s stronger negotiating power, lower administrative costs, as well as other improvements will save taxpayers an estimated $5 billion annually. Savings for individual Canadians and their families will be significant and tangible. Canadian families will save, on average, $350 per year. Pharmacare will also provide businesses with much-needed relief from the high and growing cost of prescription drug insurance. The average business owner who provides drug coverage will save over $750 annually per employee.

The devil is in the details.  Yes obviously citizens and the business owner will save money because the cost will be covered by the taxpayer, which includes the business owner and the citizen.  Somebody has to pay for the drugs.

How will it mean lower admin costs?  They have to create a big government bureaucracy to administer the program, paid for by taxpayers.

Quote
- The Council recommends that Canadians and employers continue to be able to purchase private drug insurance as a form of supplementary insurance to national pharmacare.

Then what is the point?  Why would you still need a private plan?

I'm not against a universal pharmacare plan, in fact I think it's probably a good idea.  But the devil is in the details.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1192 on: March 03, 2021, 07:07:56 am »
Facts: Trudeau shot down universal pharmacare. He doesn't want to help people with drug coverage, even though his party has been advocating it for over 20 years.
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Offline waldo

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1193 on: March 03, 2021, 11:11:34 am »
Facts: Trudeau shot down universal pharmacare. He doesn't want to help people with drug coverage, even though his party has been advocating it for over 20 years.

your NDPOpinion is not fact! What was 'shot down' is the NDP stunt... the NDP {unconstitutional} plan to impose a top-down solution in favour of negotiating with provinces.

Quote from: Justin Trudeau, Prime Minister of Canada
The NDP are pulling a political stunt to try to demonstrate that it could do it with the wave of a magic wand. We work in the real world here. No Canadian should have to make a choice between buying medication and putting food on the table. We will therefore continue to work towards national universal pharmacare. We will do so in respect of the Constitution and in partnership with the provinces and not impose a political decision from Ottawa. We believe in partnership as the path forward.
Quote from: Justin Trudeau, Prime Minister of Canada
Unlike the NDP, we will not be imposing, in provincial jurisdiction, rules that are not worked out with the provinces. We respect the constitution on this side of the House and we’ll work hand in glove with the premiers to ensure… pharmacare universally across this country

Offline waldo

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1194 on: March 03, 2021, 11:26:10 am »
The devil is in the details.
.
.
 But the devil is in the details.

some of the details... answers... to the questions you're asking can be found within the previously linked to final report from the Trudeau Liberal government’s advisory panel on pharmacare; a report that represents:

Quote
a cross-Canada national engagement; one that included an extraordinary collaboration and input from provincial and territorial health ministers and senior officials. Health ministers, finance ministers, and in some cases premiers; one that included senior officials responsible for the management of public drug plans; one that included Indigenous leaders and peoples across the country; one that included Canadians represented as patients, health care providers, stakeholder organizations, industry, business, labour and academics; that included expertise provided by Health Canada and Finance Canada; etc..

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1195 on: March 05, 2021, 07:36:37 am »
your NDPOpinion is not fact! What was 'shot down' is the NDP stunt... the NDP {unconstitutional} plan to impose a top-down solution in favour of negotiating with provinces.
You keep parroting the unconstitutional line from the Liberals. The plan was as unconstitutional as the Canada Health Act....that is to say, it's not at all unconstitutional.
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Offline waldo

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1196 on: March 05, 2021, 11:09:38 am »
You keep parroting the unconstitutional line from the Liberals. The plan was as unconstitutional as the Canada Health Act....that is to say, it's not at all unconstitutional.

and you keep on... keeping on with mentioning the Canada Health Act! Yet, somehow you managed to ignore the following - go figure, hey!  Just answer the question. ;D

and... the NDP is being called out on their outright hypocrisy in arguing that their bill C-213 would act on the 2019 report from the government’s advisory panel on pharmacare - as chaired by former Ontario Liberal health minister Eric Hoskins. It was this panel's final report that recommended:

Quote
Ottawa work with provinces and territories on a pharmacare system reflecting the five principles of: public, portable, comprehensive, universal, and accessible. The report also recommended the federal government “enshrine the principles and national standards of pharmacare in federal legislation, separate and distinct from the Canada Health Act, to demonstrate its ongoing commitment to partnership on national pharmacare and provide for a dedicated funding arrangement.

so which is it, as you say within/a part of the Canada Health Act... or per the Hoskin's panel recommendation, separate and distinct from the Canada Health Act? Which is it, hey?

Offline waldo

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1197 on: March 05, 2021, 11:16:08 am »
previously posted; previously, cyber ignored - go figure!


Offline waldo

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1198 on: March 05, 2021, 11:38:38 am »
NO PHARMACARE {COOPERATIVE FEDERALISM} FOR YOU!

That's now the Trudeau Singh/NDP brand...

hey cyber, does the current complement of Conservative provincial premiers make it a stronger... or weaker case for the success of a federally imposed, non-cooperative, forced top-down rules/criteria shaping a proposed/presumed national pharmacare program?

what about that summer 2019 meeting outcome that had the 13 provincial/territorial Premiers issue a statement that they wanted the option to opt out of any federal pharmacare program... and keep the additional money Ottawa would otherwise spend on drugs in their provinces! And you expect these same provincial/territorial Premiers to line-up with the NDP proposal you're parroting? Really... c'mon!

Cooperative Federalism - what a concept, hey!

much is at stake in pharamacare negotiations between the federal government and the provinces... the existence and success of a public drug program depends on these negotiations and the cooperation to realize them. Is a national pharmacare program possible and attainable without cooperative federalism between the federal, provincial, and territorial governments? Singh/NDP and their supporting parrots would have you believe so!

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #1199 on: March 05, 2021, 11:41:38 am »
Keep shoveling. Canadians aren't buying it. Looks like nothing but a bunch of political BS to explain away why the Liberals don't support national pharmacare.
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