Author Topic: The Trudeau Brand  (Read 91130 times)

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Offline JMT

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #525 on: October 30, 2020, 09:27:29 am »
Spend now pay forever.

Spend now with low interest and create growth that forever outweighs the cost of debt servicing.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #526 on: October 30, 2020, 11:43:58 am »
Spend now with low interest and create growth that forever outweighs the cost of debt servicing.

It's questionable whether spending on Covid-19 is going to create much growth?

But I like the attitude expressed much better than Gorgeous's procrastinating forever even as he supports spending now.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #527 on: October 30, 2020, 11:50:41 am »
Nor would that be prudent fiscal policy in any growth scenario.

Interest compounds over time.  Money borrowed and not repayed will need to be reborrowed indefinitely, with more money needing to be borrowed to pay for the compounding interest.

If, for example, 100 billion dollars is borrowed for 50 years at a modest average interest rate of 2.5% and never repayed, you will owe 350 billion in total at the end of the 50 years.  After 100 years the total jumps to 12.1 billion, after 200 years it jumps to 147 billion and the interest keeps snowballing. You don't ever have to pay back that 100 billion dollars as long as you keep reborrowing the same amount, but you do have to pay the interest on it.   You can keep borrowing to pay the interest, but that will snowball too.

So what needs to be assessed is if the extra money paid in interest on the initial investment is a good investment over the longterm.  Is the GDP created from all costs worth more than the actual costs of the investment.  Or would it be a better investment longterm to pay for government spending with taxes as we go, or repay borrowing before a certain timeframe to avoid too much compounding?  I've personally never heard anyone EVER, government or otherwise, make a specific argument about this either way using real numbers and real projections.  Maybe they have, but i haven't seen it, and none of us have made the case either, it's all guesswork.  Let's see the data.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #528 on: October 30, 2020, 11:53:30 am »
It's questionable whether spending on Covid-19 is going to create much growth?

It's more of a strategy to minimize losses.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #529 on: October 30, 2020, 12:10:01 pm »
Interest compounds over time.  Money borrowed and not repayed will need to be reborrowed indefinitely, with more money needing to be borrowed to pay for the compounding interest.

If, for example, 100 billion dollars is borrowed for 50 years at a modest average interest rate of 2.5% and never repayed, you will owe 350 billion in total at the end of the 50 years.  After 100 years the total jumps to 12.1 billion, after 200 years it jumps to 147 billion and the interest keeps snowballing. You don't ever have to pay back that 100 billion dollars as long as you keep reborrowing the same amount, but you do have to pay the interest on it.   You can keep borrowing to pay the interest, but that will snowball too.

So what needs to be assessed is if the extra money paid in interest on the initial investment is a good investment over the longterm.  Is the GDP created from all costs worth more than the actual costs of the investment.  Or would it be a better investment longterm to pay for government spending with taxes as we go, or repay borrowing before a certain timeframe to avoid too much compounding?  I've personally never heard anyone EVER, government or otherwise, make a specific argument about this either way using real numbers and real projections.  Maybe they have, but i haven't seen it, and none of us have made the case either, it's all guesswork.  Let's see the data.

Your figures and talking points lack any sophistication that could make them debatable Gorgeous. And the question on spending has already been answered, even by you.

So out of all that, do you have any point you're trying to get across? Maybe you could create a graph that shows compounding interest as it relates to differing timeframes?

Except then everybody would just have to agree with the math, providing it was done correctly.

As soon as a discussion becomes sophisticated enough to be of any interest to the brightest 25% or so, the Conservative argument needs to be abandoned as no longer applicable.

That's the reason why you'll get no support from people such as squid or wilbur, other than embarrassment you'll be forced to ignore.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline wilber

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #530 on: October 30, 2020, 12:17:12 pm »
Spend now with low interest and create growth that forever outweighs the cost of debt servicing.

You have no idea what future debt servicing costs will be. But hey, if we are lucky, that will be someone else's problem.

Infinite growth on a finite planet is not a real thing.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #531 on: October 30, 2020, 12:17:29 pm »
It's more of a strategy to minimize losses.

Well thanks for sharing that with me! You really do want to be a rightist don't you. Ever since you showed support for Jordan Peterson it's been obvious. But no matter how hard you try, your talking points are defused those who lean left.

That's a big part of the reason I suggested you were 'flighty'. 

That's not meant as an insult when suggested to you particularly. It's more of an attempt to get down to a closer examination of what makes you quite intelligent.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #532 on: October 30, 2020, 12:20:25 pm »
Your figures and talking points lack any sophistication that could make them debatable Gorgeous. And the question on spending has already been answered, even by you.

So out of all that, do you have any point you're trying to get across? Maybe you could create a graph that shows compounding interest as it relates to differing timeframes?

Except then everybody would just have to agree with the math, providing it was done correctly.

As soon as a discussion becomes sophisticated enough to be of any interest to the brightest 25% or so, the Conservative argument needs to be abandoned as no longer applicable.

That's the reason why you'll get no support from people such as squid or wilbur, other than embarrassment you'll be forced to ignore.

Feel free to check the math yourself:  https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.php

I'm also going to give you one warning and ONE warning only:  if you continue to lash me with backhanded insults i will put you on permanent ignore. I don't put up with this kind of nonsense, and i'm smart enough to see what you're up to.  Your move.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #533 on: October 30, 2020, 12:21:20 pm »
See Gorgeous, pretty much what I said when wilbur attempts to contribute to the conversation. Nothing more than the basic facts that were established months ago.

Maybe he could create the graphs we need and astound everybody with the facts shown by the math!
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #534 on: October 30, 2020, 12:29:01 pm »
Feel free to check the math yourself:  https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.php

I'm also going to give you one warning and ONE warning only:  if you continue to lash me with backhanded insults i will put you on permanent ignore. I don't put up with this kind of nonsense, and i'm smart enough to see what you're up to.  Your move.

It's only you that take it as backhanded insults and that could be because you lack confidence in your talking points. If you have to ignore me then I'm o.k. with that, but be aware that you'll be proving you're weak and flighty.

I've already said that I regard you as quite intelligent!

And don't forget, it was you who started the backhanded insults against me. You remember that don't you?

Do you have any talking points that can be claimed as the property of the right? The math is the math and is a constant that can't be claimed by any political persuasion. And the thing is, you've acknowledged that already.

How about this: Any ideas on how the Liberal party could adjust their spending?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #535 on: October 30, 2020, 12:54:07 pm »
It's only you that take it as backhanded insults and that could be because you lack confidence in your talking points. If you have to ignore me then I'm o.k. with that, but be aware that you'll be proving you're weak and flighty.

I've already said that I regard you as quite intelligent!

And don't forget, it was you who started the backhanded insults against me. You remember that don't you?

Do you have any talking points that can be claimed as the property of the right? The math is the math and is a constant that can't be claimed by any political persuasion. And the thing is, you've acknowledged that already.

How about this: Any ideas on how the Liberal party could adjust their spending?

I don't speak for the right, i'm generally left of center economically, which is why I more or less support this government's large spending during COVID.

The one thing I would do spending-wise is add a lot more oversight to the people taking the CERB etc., and businesses taking the wage subsidy, to prevent fraud.  This needs to be improved with the regular EI program too.  They tell you that you need to be actively looking for work while on EI and to save resumes and emails sent out as evidence, but they virtually never check this.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline waldo

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #536 on: October 30, 2020, 12:57:18 pm »
keep calm & borrow on! (h/t CBC's Wherry) ... 'build back better'!

Quote from: Minister of Finance Chrystia Freeland
The Liberal government's approach is not based solely on heart — on concern for vulnerable Canadians — but is also grounded in prudent, dispassionate economic calculus.

For however long the pandemic is with us the federal government has to support Canadian citizens and businesses — because it's the compassionate thing to do and it's also the pragmatic thing to do.

Our eventual recovery will be faster and more complete in direct proportion to how much we limit the economic scarring caused by the coronavirus recession.

But limiting the damage won't be enough. To ensure the recovery is as broad, robust and complete as possible, there will also be a need for targeted, carefully thought-out investment on a meaningful scale.

The pandemic recession has been worse than the Great Recession of 2008 — so it stands to reason we will need to invest more, not less.


but again, as #pigeonPierre stated: Conservatives don't believe in "big fat government programs"!

yes... yes the #pigeonPierre antics are exactly that!

Quote from: #pigeonPierre
You may want to address COVID-19 with big fat government programs; we're conservatives, we don't believe in that

Deputy Prime Minister Freeland reminds the CPC MP for Carleton, Pierre Poilievre, what he said when asked what support the government should offer to Canadians hurt by the pandemic:

imagine - pandemic spending having an impact on the deficit - go figure! As #pigeonPierre says, you and your c/Conservative ilk don't believe in that!

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #537 on: October 30, 2020, 01:19:24 pm »
The Conservative's agenda is dying waldo, mainly because they need to manufacture lies and exaggerations to promote it. And also because Canadians are becoming more politically astute in this 21st. century

Gorgeous, I think the line about actively searching for work has been created to appease rightists. It sounds great on the surface but it can't be applied more strictly than it already is being applied

I'm pretty sure it's being applied more strictly than my personal experience with it for a couple of months 25 years ago.

My preference would be to relax it a bit or just leave it alone, while you preference appears to make the rules stricter.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline JMT

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #538 on: October 30, 2020, 01:52:53 pm »
Interest compounds over time. 

So does growth.

Offline JMT

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Re: The Trudeau Brand
« Reply #539 on: October 30, 2020, 01:53:56 pm »
You have no idea what future debt servicing costs will be.

Pretty good idea.