Author Topic: The Jihadi Jack Affair  (Read 428 times)

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2019, 05:48:48 pm »
No.  I didn't suggest anything.  This issue prompted discussion about how to avoid future jihadi jacks.

Ok, not how I understood your response but fine.

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2019, 10:18:20 am »
Yeah, me too, and if push comes to shove, I'm English.

I still wouldn't want to move back there from Canada though.

bcsapper, you seem like a very nice fellow, so don't take this personally, but this I see as the fundamental problem.

This is Canada's 'Oath of Citizenship' you said you took during your Citizenship ceremony:

Quote
I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.

So you swore true allegiance to the Queen of Canada, but you just said "if push comes to shove, I'm English".  What that suggests (correct me if I'm wrong) is that in the unlikely event of a conflict between Canada and the UK, your "true allegiance" remains with Britain.  You love living in Canada, but your heart and allegiance remains with the UK.  Correct?

You probably didn't lie during your oath. What I think likely happened, which happens with a lot of Canadians from the UK, is that you may think that the Queen of Canada and the Queen of the UK are the same entity (since they are served by the same person, Elizabeth II), so you likely thought you're swearing loyalty to the royal crown in general.  But the Queen of Canada and Queen of the UK are completely separate legal entities, and Canada no longer has any formal legal ties to the UK or the Queen of the UK.

In my opinion, it's impossible to bear "true allegiance" to two different countries, because when a conflict of interest ever arises between those 2 countries (ie: war, a diplomatic dispute, you work for the government etc), one naturally will often not remain neutral and can even be forced to take sides (sort of like this Jihadi Jack asshat).  That's why when "push comes to shove", IMO every Canadian should feel and have allegiance to Canada.  Therefore dual citizenship shouldn't be allowed, even though it's still fine and natural to retain a sense of connection and fondness with another country.  This will help ensure that "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian".
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb
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Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #62 on: September 05, 2019, 10:18:42 am »
Here's the 'Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America' taken by new Americans.  Notice that this oath requires the oathtaker to "absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty", and for that reason IMO is a superior oath to Canada's:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/naturalization-test/naturalization-oath-allegiance-united-states-america
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Granny

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2019, 01:03:00 pm »
bcsapper, you seem like a very nice fellow, so don't take this personally, but this I see as the fundamental problem.

This is Canada's 'Oath of Citizenship' you said you took during your Citizenship ceremony:

So you swore true allegiance to the Queen of Canada, but you just said "if push comes to shove, I'm English".  What that suggests (correct me if I'm wrong) is that in the unlikely event of a conflict between Canada and the UK, your "true allegiance" remains with Britain.  You love living in Canada, but your heart and allegiance remains with the UK.  Correct?

You probably didn't lie during your oath. What I think likely happened, which happens with a lot of Canadians from the UK, is that you may think that the Queen of Canada and the Queen of the UK are the same entity (since they are served by the same person, Elizabeth II), so you likely thought you're swearing loyalty to the royal crown in general.  But the Queen of Canada and Queen of the UK are completely separate legal entities, and Canada no longer has any formal legal ties to the UK or the Queen of the UK.

In my opinion, it's impossible to bear "true allegiance" to two different countries, because when a conflict of interest ever arises between those 2 countries (ie: war, a diplomatic dispute, you work for the government etc), one naturally will often not remain neutral and can even be forced to take sides (sort of like this Jihadi Jack asshat).  That's why when "push comes to shove", IMO every Canadian should feel and have allegiance to Canada. Therefore dual citizenship shouldn't be allowed, even though it's still fine and natural to retain a sense of connection and fondness with another country.  This will help ensure that "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian".

You talk as if we're all incapable of making intelligent, informed decisions and choices about any issues that may arise between our dual national attachments. That's your opinion only. There are many ways that having substantial numbers of Canadians with dual citizenships from a variety of countries give Canada important and beneficial links with those countries.

That's one issue.

Next:
Note that the legal "loyalties" you cited include our Head of State, and our laws.
It does not include the Government of Canada, a partisan political body that must tolerate people dissenting and protesting against it, because that IS democracy.

Democracy easily erodes into fascism if we allow ourselves to be forced into blind loyalties and enforced 'nationalism', and curtailment of freedoms.

That's the danger. More regulation and more enforcement don't mean a better Canada.


Offline Omni

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2019, 03:21:28 pm »
bcsapper, you seem like a very nice fellow, so don't take this personally, but this I see as the fundamental problem.

I'm sure you're a nice fellow too but slightly misinformed as to the power the Queen still has. Canada is a constitutional Monarchy where the monarch agrees to loan her powers to the elected politicians, mostly the Prime Minister. The Canadian constitution grants the queen sweeping powers declaring that the executive government and authority of and over Canada is vested in her.  She is the head of Canada's parliament and the commander in chief of the Canadian Armed Forces. Symbolic you can argue but she still holds those powers.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2019, 09:50:09 pm »
bcsapper, you seem like a very nice fellow, so don't take this personally, but this I see as the fundamental problem.

This is Canada's 'Oath of Citizenship' you said you took during your Citizenship ceremony:

So you swore true allegiance to the Queen of Canada, but you just said "if push comes to shove, I'm English".  What that suggests (correct me if I'm wrong) is that in the unlikely event of a conflict between Canada and the UK, your "true allegiance" remains with Britain.  You love living in Canada, but your heart and allegiance remains with the UK.  Correct?

You probably didn't lie during your oath. What I think likely happened, which happens with a lot of Canadians from the UK, is that you may think that the Queen of Canada and the Queen of the UK are the same entity (since they are served by the same person, Elizabeth II), so you likely thought you're swearing loyalty to the royal crown in general.  But the Queen of Canada and Queen of the UK are completely separate legal entities, and Canada no longer has any formal legal ties to the UK or the Queen of the UK.

In my opinion, it's impossible to bear "true allegiance" to two different countries, because when a conflict of interest ever arises between those 2 countries (ie: war, a diplomatic dispute, you work for the government etc), one naturally will often not remain neutral and can even be forced to take sides (sort of like this Jihadi Jack asshat).  That's why when "push comes to shove", IMO every Canadian should feel and have allegiance to Canada.  Therefore dual citizenship shouldn't be allowed, even though it's still fine and natural to retain a sense of connection and fondness with another country.  This will help ensure that "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian".

Actually, I just meant I would want England to beat Canada at Soccer.  Or Cricket.

You can win Ice Hockey if you want.  I won't be too disappointed.

Seriously though, I made the oath as you say, but I also took the British Army oath of allegiance:

I (your name), swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me.

I took that one first, so I assume it holds sway.

I hope it never comes to a fight!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 08:48:39 am by bcsapper »
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline wilber

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2019, 10:04:48 pm »
You talk as if we're all incapable of making intelligent, informed decisions and choices about any issues that may arise between our dual national attachments. That's your opinion only. There are many ways that having substantial numbers of Canadians with dual citizenships from a variety of countries give Canada important and beneficial links with those countries.

That's one issue.

Next:
Note that the legal "loyalties" you cited include our Head of State, and our laws.
It does not include the Government of Canada, a partisan political body that must tolerate people dissenting and protesting against it, because that IS democracy.

Democracy easily erodes into fascism if we allow ourselves to be forced into blind loyalties and enforced 'nationalism', and curtailment of freedoms.

That's the danger. More regulation and more enforcement don't mean a better Canada.
Maintaining important and beneficial links to other countries has nothing to do with dual citizenship.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline wilber

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2019, 10:10:15 pm »
Actually, I just meant I would want England to beat Canada at Soccer.  Or Cricket.

You can win Ice Hockey if you want.  I won't be too disappointed.

Seriously though, I made the oath as you say, but I also took the Brithish Army oath of allegiance:

I (your name), swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me.

I took that one first, so I assume it holds sway.

I hope it never comes to a fight!

So you are a Canadian, is a Canadian, is a Canadian, until you decide to be a Britain again.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2019, 10:17:57 pm »
So you are a Canadian, is a Canadian, is a Canadian, until you decide to be a Britain again.

Do you think Justin would be upset? Did he mention dual citizens?

Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline wilber

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2019, 10:41:54 pm »
Do you think Justin would be upset? Did he mention dual citizens?
Jack wouldn't be an issue if he wasn't.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline the_squid

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2019, 12:25:07 am »
Jack wouldn't be an issue if he wasn't.

What do you think of BCSappers’s allegiance to Britain?

Offline wilber

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2019, 09:30:54 am »
What do you think of BCSappers’s allegiance to Britain?

I don't have an opinion on it but it makes the argument, a Canadian, is a Canadian, is a Canadian questionable when it comes to dual citizens, as they are not in the same sense as Canadians with single citizenship.

The Brits must feel the same way as they just revoked the citizenship of someone who was born and raised in Britain who also held Canadian citizenship, even though he has never lived here. They are quite content to let him be a Canadian, is a Canadian, is a Canadian.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 09:38:15 am by wilber »
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Jihadi Jack Affair
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2019, 12:13:53 pm »
What do you think of BCSappers’s allegiance to Britain?

I appreciate his honesty but it just goes to show that if dual citizens have to make a choice, there is no reason to believe they will automatically choose Canada.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC