Author Topic: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform  (Read 397 times)

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2017, 06:15:15 pm »
You want to change the system so the seat count in parliament reflects the percentage of the vote gotten by each party across the country one day every for years. By supporting such things you are saying that parties are the most important entity in our electoral system because the system is only judged based on how it is fair to parties. If you are really against party politics then I suggest  you revisit your opinions on electoral reform.

FPTP is all about parties gaining a majority in Parliament in order to dictate to other Canadians what a minority want. I suggest you revisit your opinion on electoral reform.

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2017, 06:55:17 pm »
FPTP is all about parties gaining a majority in Parliament in order to dictate to other Canadians what a minority want. I suggest you revisit your opinion on electoral reform.
Actually no. Under FPTP there are 308 contests where an MP is chosen each election. These MPs then get to vote on which one of them should be the prime minister and fill the various cabinet posts. Parties have no official role in the existing system. They only show up because individual MPs recognize that associating themselves with a "brand" increases their chances at the polls.

We could reform the the system to disallow many of the things that parties have created to unofficially preserve the power of parties. But you don't want that. You want to double down and make parties the central component of our electoral system. Which is why I say you need to give your head a shake if you claim to dislike party politics while insisting that it be entrenched in the electoral system. PR means party politics on steroids.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 07:00:34 pm by TimG »

Offline wilber

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2017, 07:29:12 pm »
Actually no. Under FPTP there are 308 contests where an MP is chosen each election. These MPs then get to vote on which one of them should be the prime minister and fill the various cabinet posts. Parties have no official role in the existing system. They only show up because individual MPs recognize that associating themselves with a "brand" increases their chances at the polls.



The MP's don't chose a Prime Minister, the leader of the winning party becomes Prime Minister and he is chosen by unelected party members and he choses his cabinet. What you say is true in theory and that is the way it should work but nowhere near true in reality. Prime Ministers have been dumped because they have lost control of their MP's. Even when Chretien was forced out, Martin still had to win a leadership convention before he could succeed him as Prime Minister

The problem with our system is that party leaders are given too much control over elected MP's. After all, the party leader is just another elected MP chosen by party members, not elected by the country as a whole. I have never seen a PM or Premier's name on any of my ballots. My mayor on the other hand.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 07:39:12 pm by wilber »
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Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2017, 07:42:55 pm »
The problem with our system is that party leaders are given too much control over elected MP's. After all, the party leader is just another elected MP chosen by party members, not elected by the country as a whole. I have never seen a PM or Premier's name on any of my ballots. My mayor on the other hand.
I agree completely. My point is we could get back to the original system by prohibiting party constitutions that prevent MPs from deposing a PM. Parties will not like this but it would create a system where the PM and cabinet is accountable to MPs as it was originally designed.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2017, 08:36:52 pm »
I agree completely. My point is we could get back to the original system by prohibiting party constitutions that prevent MPs from deposing a PM. Parties will not like this but it would create a system where the PM and cabinet is accountable to MPs as it was originally designed.

What about taking away the powers of appointment that the Prime Ministers over time have gained? What about sending to jail the party whip? What about eliminating party platforms, and having the individual MPs express their personal opinions to their own constituents?

There are countless practices in our current system that make it a party system, far removed from the ideal MPs accountable to their constituents you claim.

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2017, 08:47:55 pm »
What about taking away the powers of appointment that the Prime Ministers over time have gained? What about sending to jail the party whip? What about eliminating party platforms, and having the individual MPs express their personal opinions to their own constituents?
Yet you want increase the power of parties by changing the electoral system. How could you possibly think those these are bad but wish for a system that makes them worse?

Seems to me that limiting the power of parties inside a FPTP framework makes more sense.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 08:57:34 pm by TimG »

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2017, 09:14:56 pm »
Yet you want increase the power of parties by changing the electoral system.

No, I want to decrease the power of parties by making it highly unlikely we will get more dictatorships from the minority as we have had for much of the past 150 years. The ever increasing power centred in the PMO in recent decades illustrates the problem with the current system.

Offline wilber

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2017, 08:59:05 am »
I agree completely. My point is we could get back to the original system by prohibiting party constitutions that prevent MPs from deposing a PM. Parties will not like this but it would create a system where the PM and cabinet is accountable to MPs as it was originally designed.

Trudeau's statement that it is his decision alone to decide how Canadians get to elect their representatives is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Any Liberal MP that contradicts him risks winding up as an independent MP. By repatriating the Constitution and instituting the Charter of Rights, his father did something much bigger than mere electoral reform. I don't think Justin has it in him to take such a step. Not at this point in his life anyway. He talks a good line but it seems he is just another autocrat at heart.

It will be interesting to see if young people keep pushing for reform, or if their voter turnout in the next election will be even lower than it was before the last.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC