Author Topic: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform  (Read 398 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2017, 08:38:14 am »
10% is absurd. The entire Maritimes has 6% of the Canadian population. Literally every last person in the Maritimes could vote for a party and it wouldn't get a single seat under a 10% threshold.

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2017, 09:30:39 am »
10% is absurd. The entire Maritimes has 6% of the Canadian population. Literally every last person in the Maritimes could vote for a party and it wouldn't get a single seat under a 10% threshold.
Gee. If only we had a system that ensured different regions were guaranteed representation. Oh right, we have that...

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2017, 05:38:00 pm »
You're proposing a threshold for PR that doesn't exist anywhere in the world and is in fact double the threshold of other states with PR. I'm showing the absurdity of that benchmark by letting you know that every single person in three out of ten provinces could vote for a party and it would get zero seats under your proposal. I don't know a more pointed way to show you how bad your idea is than that.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2017, 10:16:41 am »
Also, I think Andrew Coyne said it best as it pertains to concerns about smaller "fringe" parties:

If I think a party would be bad for Canada, itís my responsibility to get out and persuade my fellow citizens not to vote for them ó not rig the system so they canít.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/andrew-coyne-dont-fear-trudeaus-proportional-representation-bogeymen

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2017, 06:41:41 pm »
If I think a party would be bad for Canada, itís my responsibility to get out and persuade my fellow citizens not to vote for them ó not rig the system so they canít.
The problem with PR is the dynamics of parliament mean fringe parties have way more influence than they deserve given their public support because they can often hold governments hostage to their fringe demands. Academic arguments about representation are irrelevant compared to the practical realities.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2017, 06:42:07 am »
The problem with PR is the dynamics of parliament mean fringe parties have way more influence than they deserve
Actually, they have exactly the amount of influence that's given to them by the electorate. They're proportionally represented through the number of votes they receive. This is nonsense to say they have more influence. They have the exact same amount of influence as anyone else.
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Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2017, 11:18:12 am »
Actually, they have exactly the amount of influence that's given to them by the electorate. They're proportionally represented through the number of votes they receive. This is nonsense to say they have more influence. They have the exact same amount of influence as anyone else.
You are ignoring the practical realities of minority parliaments where  the largest parties see themselves as rivals and rarely co-operate. This means the government cannot govern without support of one or more fringe party. This gives the fringe party the ability to extort concessions from the government that most people in the country do not want but are forced to live with because the practical reality of parliament gives them that power. If a party gets 5% of the vote should not be in a position to force an election if the government does not bend to its demands.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2017, 03:01:33 pm »
You are ignoring the practical realities of minority parliaments where  the largest parties see themselves as rivals and rarely co-operate.

Then that is a problem with the largest parties, not the smaller ones. If they can't get along, then how are we to believe they represent the majority of Canadians. This inability to compromise is the problem with the larger parties, they are out for total dominance.

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2017, 03:33:17 pm »
Then that is a problem with the largest parties, not the smaller ones. If they can't get along, then how are we to believe they represent the majority of Canadians. This inability to compromise is the problem with the larger parties, they are out for total dominance.
No - this is a consequence of your desire to make parties the the legal center of politics. Parties are about branding and are no different than Gap Jeans or Ford Cars. Parties must differentiate themselves to have competitive brands. For fringe parties they can cater a small group of single issue voters (anti-fossil fuel, abortion, native rights whatever) and need to push these single issues if they want keep getting their 5%. For the coke an pepsi parties they have a tougher job and can only differentiate their brand by opposing the other and no amount of wishful thinking on your part will change this.

That said, there are examples of PR states such as Germany where the fringe parties are so bad that the coke and pepsi parties create a 'grand coalition' but that means the voters no longer have a way to get rid of the government unless they vote for the lunatic fringe which is bad for the country and bad for democracy. The last thing we would want in Canada is perpetual rule by a grand coalition of Liberals and Conservatives.

Offline Mr. Perfect

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2017, 03:39:06 pm »
Quote
The last thing we would want in Canada is perpetual rule by a grand coalition of Liberals and Conservatives.

Really?  Having to compromise to govern is a bad thing?  You want one party to have all the power in government without ever needing to compromise, or be accountable to, someone who may not have the exact same views?

That's how we get Chretien not caring about the corruption in his own party (or being part of it).  Imagine if he had Conservative MPs looking over his shoulder at what was going on...

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2017, 03:47:20 pm »
Really?  Having to compromise to govern is a bad thing?  You want one party to have all the power in government without ever needing to compromise, or be accountable to, someone who may not have the exact same views?
You obviously did not bother to read my post. Parties are brands. Learn what that means and try again....

The most important feature of a democracy is it provides a way to peacefully trigger a complete transition of power. This is the only way to keep the system relatively honest. Mirroring the distribution of votes on one day once every four years is a secondary concern. A system that makes complete transitions of power rare is bad for the country.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 04:18:33 pm by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2017, 07:40:58 pm »
Then that is a problem with the largest parties, not the smaller ones. If they can't get along, then how are we to believe they represent the majority of Canadians. This inability to compromise is the problem with the larger parties, they are out for total dominance.
Not to mention that was one of the only things that was very clear from the MyDemocracy.ca survey, which was a methodological dumpster fire. People who completed the survey expect parties to work together and compromise.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2017, 03:38:51 pm »
No - this is a consequence of your desire to make parties the the legal center of politics.

I have long talked out against party politics, I do not have the desire you allege I do. Politics is however about compromise, and parties are one way of achieving that compromise. Suggest a better alternative, I am all ears.

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2017, 05:53:00 pm »
People who completed the survey expect parties to work together and compromise.
What people say and what people vote for are very different things. Parties that endlessly compromise going either lose their "brand" or lose their "base". Either leads to electoral oblivion.

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2017, 05:57:46 pm »
I have long talked out against party politics, I do not have the desire you allege I do.
You want to change the system so the seat count in parliament reflects the percentage of the vote gotten by each party across the country one day every for years. By supporting such things you are saying that parties are the most important entity in our electoral system because the system is only judged based on how it is fair to parties. If you are really against party politics then I suggest  you revisit your opinions on electoral reform.