Author Topic: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform  (Read 397 times)

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Offline JMT

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2017, 09:57:39 am »
I agree poochy - I've actually become somewhat disillusioned with Trudeau.  I don't regret my choice, but I'm not filled withe same optimism I was even a year ago.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2017, 10:07:40 am »
Political memory is short but if the whole "broken promises" narrative comes to define his prime ministership it will be a lasting memory. Consequently, the left will split its vote and the Tories will have another PM.

Offline JMT

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2017, 10:14:04 am »
Political memory is short but if the whole "broken promises" narrative comes to define his prime ministership it will be a lasting memory. Consequently, the left will split its vote and the Tories will have another PM.

And for those keeping track, according to the website that keeps track:

https://www.trudeaumetre.ca/

He's not doing well.

38/28 is not a good record.  I guess that's what happens when you make too many promises.

Offline poochy

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2017, 10:26:47 am »
Im not sure if it's been updated recently but last i looked at that site the criteria for a promise being in progress seemed a bit generous.  Like the Prime Ministers question period...considering his performance in QP when he does show up, i doubt it.  Again yesterday he said some pretty dumb things trying to defend this decision.  Anyway, he isn't Trump.   As an aside, I don't see myself voting NDP, but, why isn't Nathan Cullen running for the leadership of that party? He seems pretty sharp to me.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2017, 01:46:56 pm »
I thought about making a separate thread, but someone else can do that if they want.

Here is an official parliamentary e-petition for electoral reform. This is such an important topic that Nathan Cullen did not even connect it to the party's site, as politicians tend to do to pad their mailing lists and solicit donations. If you want the Liberals to stand to their promise of electoral reform, please take a moment to sign it and forward it to others.

https://petitions.parl.gc.ca/en/Petition/Sign/e-616

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2017, 02:48:46 pm »
I agree poochy - I've actually become somewhat disillusioned with Trudeau. 

I feel about the same. 

Offline wilber

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2017, 12:53:08 pm »
I think the real problem with our system isn't how we elect people, it's how our MP's are treated after they are elected and to a lesser degree, even how candidates are selected. Unlike some other parliamentary systems, Canada has given the power of life and death over MP's and prospective candidates to our party leaders. MP's serve at the pleasure of the leader, not the people who elected them. Until that changes, I don't think it makes much difference how we elect them.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2017, 01:03:07 pm »
MP's serve at the pleasure of the leader, not the people who elected them.

They are always free to cross the floor, or sit as an independent; it is not like that has never happened before.

Offline Blueblood

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2017, 01:08:41 pm »
MP's serve at the pleasure of the leader, not the people who elected them.

They are always free to cross the floor, or sit as an independent; it is not like that has never happened before.

But they still don't balance the power of party leaders.  I think that the leader of the party should only be picked by sitting mps which would be a balance of power, however, that won't happen as the party brass that doesn't sit in house and do all the fundraising wouldn't want their influence over the party leader neutered.

Offline wilber

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2017, 02:14:32 pm »
Quote
They are always free to cross the floor, or sit as an independent; it is not like that has never happened before.

Then they just become the subject of another leaders iron discipline. How about something novel, they get to consider the opinions of the people who actually elected them when they vote. If a party leader can't convince a group of essentially like minded people that a policy is a good one, perhaps they should rethink the policy instead of bringing down the hammer on our elected representatives.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online the_squid

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2017, 01:38:01 pm »
This was a very crass move by the government and their reasons were even worse.  Nonsensical garbage about "no concensus"....   they never tried for any sort of conscensus, nor mentioned that they were trying for one.

I never voted Liberal, but they should lose votes over this...  I did lose a lot of confidence that they will actually do what they promise to do. 

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2017, 01:51:31 pm »
This was a very crass move by the government and their reasons were even worse.  Nonsensical garbage about "no consensus"....   they never tried for any sort of consensus, nor mentioned that they were trying for one.
Surveys support the government on this point. Canadians may like the idea of electoral reform in abstract but when they are presented with concrete proposals there is no consensus and often FPTP wins as everyone's second choice.

More importantly, there is unbridgeable partisan divide where supporters of different parties prefer differ systems. This means that choosing a system favored by one set of partisans would likely be automatically opposed by others. No amount of hand wringing will change this.

BTW: giving up a majority on the parliamentary committee was an attempt to create cross party consensus, however, that committee could not find any outside of abstract bromides.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 01:54:42 pm by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2017, 03:49:16 pm »
This was a very crass move by the government and their reasons were even worse.  Nonsensical garbage about "no concensus"....   they never tried for any sort of conscensus, nor mentioned that they were trying for one.
What's even worse, Nathan Cullen pointed out that there was 80% consensus for reform when the committee polled Canadians. If 80% isn't consensus, then I would like to know what they want--100%?

Offline TimG

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2017, 03:57:42 pm »
What's even worse, Nathan Cullen pointed out that there was 80% consensus for reform when the committee polled Canadians. If 80% isn't consensus, then I would like to know what they want--100%?
The devil is in the details. There is no consensus on the replacement and the distinction matters. It is easy for people to say they want reform in the abstract but when they are given a specific alternative they realize the alternatives have issues too and which problems someone are willing to live with varies from person to person.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Abandonment of Electoral Reform
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2017, 04:02:23 pm »
There is no consensus on the replacement and the distinction matters.
That's what the work was supposed to be about. Finding a system that people could accept, whether it's their preferred system or not. That doesn't mean scrap the entire idea because people can't agree on a replacement. The consensus is that people want a replacement. So work on it.