Author Topic: The 60s Scoop Verdict  (Read 179 times)

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2017, 11:46:40 am »

"The uncontroverted evidence of the plaintiff's experts is that the loss of their Aboriginal identity left the children fundamentally disoriented, with a reduced ability to lead healthy and fulfilling lives. The loss of Aboriginal identity resulted in psychiatric disorders, substance abuse, unemployment, violence and numerous suicides," he said, siding with the plaintiffs.

I'm confused about this justification. He says the loss of Aboriginal identity resulted in all kinds of things which we KNOW are statistically much more common on reserves. I.e, psychiatric disorders, substance abuse, unemployment, violence and suicides. This seems bizarre to me. On top of that he's claiming these people lost their aboriginal identity. If that was the case they'd all be leading happy normal whitebread Canadian lives, wouldn't they? So clearly they didn't lose their aboriginal identity.

Offline dia

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2017, 11:58:26 am »
So what would have been the better solution?
In my opinion a better solution would have been to offer more support for families (instead of the prevailing attitude "They're just lazy Indians") and when kids did have to be removed, to have supported their connection to their community instead of trying to obliterate it.   

Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.

Offline dia

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2017, 12:03:23 pm »
I'm confused about this justification. He says the loss of Aboriginal identity resulted in all kinds of things which we KNOW are statistically much more common on reserves. I.e, psychiatric disorders, substance abuse, unemployment, violence and suicides. This seems bizarre to me. On top of that he's claiming these people lost their aboriginal identity. If that was the case they'd all be leading happy normal whitebread Canadian lives, wouldn't they? So clearly they didn't lose their aboriginal identity.

Considering that these kids were often housed in dormitories, like orphanages, dressed differently than other kids, sounded different and looked different and the prevailing attitude of Whites toward Aboriginals at the time the expectation that they'd 'live happy normal whitebread Canadian lives" seems pretty bizarre to me.   In the rural school I attended and which had a bunch of these kids, they weren't accepted into 'whitebread Canadian society' and any non-aboriginal kid who befriended them was ostracized and demeaned, just like the native kids were.   So they lost their aboriginal heritage and they weren't accepted by the society they were expected to integrate into.
Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.

Offline JMT

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2017, 01:27:25 pm »
What destroyed childhood? How is society responsible for their destroyed childhood vs their parents who abused them and their neighbors who couldn't be trusted to take them in or who didn't want to take them in?

Exactly - there was nowhere else for them to go in many cases.  Their childhoods could conceivably have been far worse.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2017, 02:37:39 pm »
Considering that these kids were often housed in dormitories, like orphanages, dressed differently than other kids, sounded different and looked different and the prevailing attitude of Whites toward Aboriginals at the time the expectation that they'd 'live happy normal whitebread Canadian lives" seems pretty bizarre to me.   In the rural school I attended and which had a bunch of these kids, they weren't accepted into 'whitebread Canadian society' and any non-aboriginal kid who befriended them was ostracized and demeaned, just like the native kids were.   So they lost their aboriginal heritage and they weren't accepted by the society they were expected to integrate into.

These were kids who were placed in foster care, not kids in the residential school system. And again, if they'd lost their heritage they wouldn't now be considering themselves natives. You are also trying to suggest they be compensated for the racism in society in the past, but that would require we compensate ALL natives who lived outside the reserves for yesterdyear's racism.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2017, 03:34:53 pm »
People are adopted all of the time and do not have a huge issue.

What does that have to do with being forcibly removed from your family and put into foster care?

Offline JMT

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2017, 04:28:14 pm »
What does that have to do with being forcibly removed from your family and put into foster care?

That also happens to a lot of people who live in bad homes. 

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2017, 04:29:09 pm »
That also happens to a lot of people who live in bad homes.

These were not bad homes, they were simply not white Christian homes.

Offline JMT

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2017, 04:41:13 pm »
These were not bad homes, they were simply not white Christian homes.

No - this isn't a case of that.  This is a case of provincial CFS agencies stepping in to do what parents couldn't.

Offline TimG

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2017, 05:50:38 pm »
These were not bad homes, they were simply not white Christian homes.
You don't know that. The fact is standards for removal of children have changed as the definition of abuse has changed. Used to be letting kids walking to school unsupervised was expected. Now it can get you a visit from child services. In any case, the prevalence of substance abuse and other social dysfunctions on aboriginal reserves was likely as bad then as it is now so I would be very surprised if there was not a valid reason for removal for any of those kids.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2017, 05:23:27 am »
How is society responsible for their destroyed childhood
Because "society" is responsible for what society did to the first nations.

Offline JMT

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2017, 08:12:35 am »
Because "society" is responsible for what society did to the first nations.

Overall, I would agree.  This event seems far more benevolent than malevolent though.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2017, 09:42:10 am »
Overall, I would agree.  This event seems far more benevolent than malevolent though.
I think for anyone who is part of the dominant social group, it would be very difficult to imagine what it would be like to be entirely divorced from your culture and identity.

Offline JMT

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2017, 10:13:10 am »
I think for anyone who is part of the dominant social group, it would be very difficult to imagine what it would be like to be entirely divorced from your culture and identity.

You're probably right.  On the other hand, I think (know) it would be hard to live with rampant substance abuse and frequent child molestation.  Reserves are that bad for many children to this day.  That is our real failure.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The 60s Scoop Verdict
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2017, 10:18:18 am »
You're probably right.  On the other hand, I think (know) it would be hard to live with rampant substance abuse and frequent child molestation.  Reserves are that bad for many children to this day.  That is our real failure.
Yeah, but no one is saying they should have stayed in abusive homes. The argument is that the government didn't provide the promised care and help to the foster parents to avoid divorcing these children entirely from their cultures and heritage, not to mention their rightful benefits as status Indians.
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