Author Topic: Tax Loopholes Closing  (Read 763 times)

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Offline JMT

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2017, 02:47:00 pm »
Almost no one pays 60% of their income in tax - I have trouble finding that credible.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2017, 03:05:03 pm »
Almost no one pays 60% of their income in tax - I have trouble finding that credible.

I'm in the highest income tax bracket, which in Ontario is 53.5%, and don't have a lot to balance it with other than home office costs. Add in HST I pay on most of the things I buy, municipal taxes, gas taxes, etc., and it adds up. I don't know if it's 60% but I doubt it's far off.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2017, 03:07:41 pm »
Almost no one pays 60% of their income in tax - I have trouble finding that credible.
They don't. The averaged tax rate for someone making $250,000 per year is 40% (averaging the margins). If the argument is that there's then consumption tax of 15% on top of that you're still only at 55% if you take it straight on. That's not correct though because they're only left with 60% of $250,000 as spendable income. And even then, that assumes hey spent it entirely on consumption and didn't invest any of it, put any in TFSAs or RRSPs, and didn't leave a single penny of it in the bank. Sure some things have more taxes like gasoline, liquor, smokes, etc. Regardless, someone making $250,000 a year is not paying 60% of their income to taxes.

Let's say they are though, that leaves them with $100,000 of disposable income. That's three times the median personal income in Canada. Their disposable income alone is in the top 10% (their gross income is in the top 1%). The highest earning Canadians whining about their taxes is really pathetic, in other words. Especially when you consider the amount of money they have left after he fantasy inflated tax rates SirJohn mentions would still leave them with more money than 90% of Canadians make in total.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2017, 03:08:54 pm »
I'm in the highest income tax bracket, which in Ontario is 53.5%, and don't have a lot to balance it with other than home office costs. Add in HST I pay on most of the things I buy, municipal taxes, gas taxes, etc., and it adds up. I don't know if it's 60% but I doubt it's far off.
you don't pay 53% on all your income. Just anything above the top bracket. You know that.

Offline wilber

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2017, 03:18:33 pm »
Tax freedom day for the average Canadian last year was June 7 which means 43% of their income goes to some sort of tax. This would indicate that many highly paid salaried people pay considerably more. It will also vary depending on where you live.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2017, 03:27:50 pm »
Tax freedom day for the average Canadian last year was June 7 which means 43% of their income goes to some sort of tax. This would indicate that many highly paid salaried people pay considerably more. It will also vary depending on where you live.
Tax freedom day is some bullshit made up by The Fraser Institute to push their ideological agenda. Their calculations are completely dodgy. Here's an article that explains how they inflate the tax figures and understate income if you're interested: http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National_Office_Pubs/2005/tax_freedom_day.pdf

The more important point is that Tax Freedom Day is meaningless. You're paying for police, fire, ambulance, schools, hospitals, the military, the postal service, garbage pickup, water treatment, food safety inspections, coast guard, border service agents, child protection services, courts, prisons, street lights, sewage, and on and on. It costs money to live in civil society. We've determined through elected officials passing legislation that some things are worth spending money on for the public good.

You want to celebrate freedom from that? The money doesn't evaporate. You're spending it on yourself just as much as others.

Offline JMT

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2017, 04:05:06 pm »
Tax freedom day is some bullshit made up by The Fraser Institute to push their ideological agenda. Their calculations are completely dodgy. Here's an article that explains how they inflate the tax figures and understate income if you're interested: http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National_Office_Pubs/2005/tax_freedom_day.pdf

The more important point is that Tax Freedom Day is meaningless. You're paying for police, fire, ambulance, schools, hospitals, the military, the postal service, garbage pickup, water treatment, food safety inspections, coast guard, border service agents, child protection services, courts, prisons, street lights, sewage, and on and on. It costs money to live in civil society. We've determined through elected officials passing legislation that some things are worth spending money on for the public good.

You want to celebrate freedom from that? The money doesn't evaporate. You're spending it on yourself just as much as others.

The Fraser institute says people are taxed at a higher rate in Canada than any other advanced country.  The OECD says this:


Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2017, 04:14:34 pm »
The Fraser institute says people are taxed at a higher rate in Canada than any other advanced country.  The OECD says this:

Do they actually say that? I've never heard it said. I've always assumed many European countries have higher taxes than we do. Then again, they get more for their taxes.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2017, 04:19:08 pm »
Do they actually say that? I've never heard it said. I've always assumed many European countries have higher taxes than we do. Then again, they get more for their taxes.

Oh yes - more than every other G7 country:

That’s a higher percentage than families in every other G7 country, except France.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/08/26/its-time-for-a-tax-revolt-in-canada

When in fact study after study shows we're among the lowest taxed people in the industrialized world:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/04/16/canadian-taxes-oecd_n_9706606.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/06/04/taxes-canada_n_16950242.html



Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2017, 04:23:16 pm »
You want to celebrate freedom from that? The money doesn't evaporate. You're spending it on yourself just as much as others.

Only a minority of the money middle class and upper middle class people pay in taxes goes to universal services which benefit us directly. Much of it goes in compensating those who earn less money, allowing them to get the same services we do while paying little or nothing for them. More goes in sustaining a lifestyle in the north and among reserve natives which is economically unsustainable, and in a wide variety of social services most of us will never use.

Nobody who pays income taxes in any amount is ever given any credit for this, though, especially by those who benefit from it. That's particularly so of the 10%, who pay, 54% of income taxes. Instead they get demonized.

Canadians in higher income groups pay a higher average tax rate. For the top 10 per cent of earners, the average total tax rate is 56 per cent — much higher than the 13 per cent average rate of the bottom 10 per cent. 

In 2014 the one per cent paid 20.5 per cent of all federal and provincial income tax. Think about that for a second: One one-hundredth of income-earners paid one-fifth of all income taxes in the country.

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/william-watson-heres-what-canadas-one-per-centers-now-earn-and-pay-in-taxes-they-aint-what-they-used-to-be

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/how-much-of-a-fair-share-do-canadas-top-earners-pay-you-might-be-surprised
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 04:27:42 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2017, 04:30:18 pm »
Oh yes - more than every other G7 country:

That’s a higher percentage than families in every other G7 country, except France.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/08/26/its-time-for-a-tax-revolt-in-canada

What they specifically said was that 'families' pay a higher rate than other G7 countries. Note the 'families' and G7. Not OECD.
And I trust a study by the Broadbent Institute as little as you trust the Fraser Institute.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 04:33:12 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2017, 04:46:27 pm »
What they specifically said was that 'families' pay a higher rate than other G7 countries. Note the 'families' and G7. Not OECD.
And I trust a study by the Broadbent Institute as little as you trust the Fraser Institute.

The Brodbent institute used data from the OECD.  The Fraser Institute pulled numbers out of their ass.  No comparison.

Offline wilber

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2017, 05:53:32 pm »

You want to celebrate freedom from that? The money doesn't evaporate. You're spending it on yourself just as much as others.
s

It's the day your spending becomes discretionary, not compulsory. No one is saying you don't get any value from your taxes.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2017, 05:55:06 pm »
The Brodbent institute used data from the OECD.  The Fraser Institute pulled numbers out of their ass.  No comparison.

Of course. That's what you choose to believe.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline JMT

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2017, 06:47:20 pm »
Of course. That's what you choose to believe.

I also provided charts from the actual OECD, so
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