Author Topic: Tax Loopholes Closing  (Read 764 times)

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Online Michael Hardner

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Tax Loopholes Closing
« on: September 04, 2017, 08:32:19 am »
Looks like Trudeau will be closing tax loopholes for small business.  While I"m not directly impacted, I have fewer options for sharing revenue with my spouse.

Any thoughts here ?

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Offline TimG

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 08:58:35 am »
Looks like Trudeau will be closing tax loopholes for small business.  While I"m not directly impacted, I have fewer options for sharing revenue with my spouse.
Any thoughts here ?
What a nightmare.  No business operates based on the premise that shareholders must 'contribute' to company on an ongoing basis but the Liberals have decided that dividends from some corporations will be arbitrarily taxed punitively because one shareholder is married to another. It is not clear how the liberals will figure out which businesses will be singled out for this punitive tax. The new rules are an ridiculous no matter which side of the income splitting debate you are on and  and impose the highest penalties on modest income business owners if they are reassessed.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:08:58 am by TimG »

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 09:01:01 am »
It's a tax grab, aimed at middle-class small business people no doubt.  I hadn't read the detail you mentioned - I thought this was about "paying" do-nothing employees who are otherwise not employed, ie.  if my wife is a stay-at-home mom, I can pay her $60K to "organize my books".

Even then, I don't see how they would figure out how to implement it.

Offline TimG

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 09:06:56 am »
It's a tax grab, aimed at middle-class small business people no doubt.  I hadn't read the detail you mentioned - I thought this was about "paying" do-nothing employees who are otherwise not employed, ie.  if my wife is a stay-at-home mom, I can pay her $60K to "organize my books".

Even then, I don't see how they would figure out how to implement it.
They can't. That is the problem. They want to the give the CRA enormous power to make arbitrary decisions based on individual circumstances that will hurt modest income business owners the hardest since they can't afford to fight petty or wrong decisions.  These rules are a text box example of how no not design a tax system and reward tax lawyers while screwing the middle class.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:09:47 am by TimG »

Offline TimG

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 09:14:07 am »
I hadn't read the detail you mentioned - I thought this was about "paying" do-nothing employees who are otherwise not employed, ie.  if my wife is a stay-at-home mom, I can pay her $60K to "organize my books".
These rules are already on the books and there is no need for change. The new rules target shareholders of corporations and, as I said, impose a requirement that some shareholders must pay an extremely punitive tax on dividends unless they also work for the corporation and the value of the dividends must not exceed the 'fair value' of the work they do for the corporation. Except what is the 'fair value' for the work of providing equity to a corporation?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:25:24 am by TimG »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 12:52:44 pm »
Several years ago I was at a dinner where a guy bragged about such a scheme... he was a "business", and his stay-at-home wife was, indeed, paid $50,000 a year for "administrative work". He boasted that he paid zero taxes despite making over $200 grand a year.  Hopefully he got caught.  I should have called the "Barbaric Accounting Practices Tip Line" to rat on him.

I don't think we will see meaningful tax reform because the Liberals are just as close with KPMG and their wealthy clients as the Conservatives are. 

I read a Conrad Black column a few weeks ago where he throws out a number of ideas for consideration.  One of them, predictably, was that business and personal income taxes should be much lower. But, unpredictably, he suggests that a wealth tax could be introduced to make up the shortfall. I was astounded to see a rich-guy proposing such an idea.

It makes some intuitive amount of sense.  In practical terms though, I think it would be hard to actually enforce. People like KPMG would become as clever at disguising wealth as they are at disguising income.

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Offline TimG

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 01:21:37 pm »
Several years ago I was at a dinner where a guy bragged about such a scheme... he was a "business", and his stay-at-home wife was, indeed, paid $50,000 a year for "administrative work". He boasted that he paid zero taxes despite making over $200 grand a year.  Hopefully he got caught.  I should have called the "Barbaric Accounting Practices Tip Line" to rat on him.
To be clear this practice is blatant violation of the current rules and changing the rules won't stop guys like him. Changing the rules on dividends only impacts people who care about following the spirit of the law. What I hate about the proposed rules is they are impossible to enforce consistently. Every business situation is different and there is no way the CRA could enforce the rules consistently across different types of businesses. This makes the tax system more arbitrary and unfair - not less.

There comes a time when a cost benefit calculation is necessary - is the extra $250 million or so (most likely less in practice) worth the increased costs of audits and CRA time? I would rather see CRA resources be spent chasing the people who currently cheat the system (like your example) instead of creating a bunch of new potential cheating opportunities.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 01:25:09 pm by TimG »

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 01:57:02 pm »
Canada should just really allow joint tax filing for common law and married couples. There is no reason a person taking care of a family (even if it's only one other person) should pay as much tax as a single person.

Effectively the income earner is paying taxes for two people and the rate should be lower.

Then people wouldn't even need to resort to bending the rules.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 02:06:19 pm »
I don't think we will see meaningful tax reform because the Liberals are just as close with KPMG and their wealthy clients as the Conservatives are. 

Exactly, and working with a firm like KPMG is ridiculously expensive for the average person or business.  Even medium size firms like MNP are about half the price.

Unless you're a pretty high earning business, or you are in an industry that requires a lot of compliance, you are not doing your taxes with medium size firms or big 4. 

This policy ensures that the rich keep eating their cake and the middle class pays the price.

I agree completely, the Liberals are Conservative Lite.  It's a shame those are our only two viable options given our electoral system.

Edited to change Grant Thornton to MNP.  Even though Grant Thornton is way better priced than KPMG, I don't think they could be considered a medium sized firm.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 02:13:36 pm by BC_cheque »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 02:33:37 pm »
There comes a time when a cost benefit calculation is necessary - is the extra $250 million or so (most likely less in practice) worth the increased costs of audits and CRA time?

I believe Argus at one time posted information indicating spending more money on CRA personnel to do audits and enforcement generates far more revenue than it costs.  The Harper government cutbacks to CRA staff are the perfect example of that old English expression "penny-wise, pound-foolish."

Also, there has to be deterrence. I mean, of course the slimeball at the dinner-party was cheating on his taxes... he didn't think he'd get caught. I would think that "tough-on-crime" conservatives would applaud the idea of cracking down on white-collar criminals. I mean, conservatives are always in favor of putting more cops on the streets to patrol for street-level crime.  Why not an equal enthusiasm for getting tough on financial criminals?  Why not put more accounting "boots" on the "ground" to catch tax cheats and fraudsters?


 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 02:42:12 pm »
Exactly, and working with a firm like KPMG is ridiculously expensive for the average person or business.  Even medium size firms like MNP are about half the price.

Unless you're a pretty high earning business, or you are in an industry that requires a lot of compliance, you are not doing your taxes with medium size firms or big 4. 

This policy ensures that the rich keep eating their cake and the middle class pays the price.

The guy who is a "business" and "pays" his wife $50,000 as an "administrator" is a pretty small fish, as is the guy who writes off his personal vehicle as a business vehicle or dining-out-night as a business expense. There is a lot of that going around, but the total dollars are probably pretty small compared to the bigger scams going on. In terms of effort/reward, it seems obvious that you should go for the bigger fish first. But there doesn't seem to be an appetite for that.  And it seems as though even if the big fish do get caught, they get off with just a light scolding.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/dennis-howlett/kpmg-tax-fraud-isle-of-man_b_15267920.html

 -k
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Offline TimG

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2017, 02:54:32 pm »
I believe Argus at one time posted information indicating spending more money on CRA personnel to do audits and enforcement generates far more revenue than it costs.  The Harper government cutbacks to CRA staff are the perfect example of that old English expression "penny-wise, pound-foolish."
The cost benefit calculation in this case is: how much extra revenue would be brought if new auditors where assigned to enforcing new rules instead of assigning those new auditors to enforcing the existing rules. As Argus pointed out, enforcing the existing rules could bring in a fair amount of money.

That also does not address the fact that the new rules cannot possibly be clear or fair because of the nature of the problem and business owners that make what they see as legitimate interpretations within the spirit of the law could face punitive penalties.

I would think that "tough-on-crime" conservatives would applaud the idea of cracking down on white-collar criminals. I mean, conservatives are always in favor of putting more cops on the streets to patrol for street-level crime.  Why not an equal enthusiasm for getting tough on financial criminals?
Conservatives are a diverse bunch. Some of them are hypocritical. That said, I would expect that people who believe that laws should be enforced don't like to see financial crimes go unpunished either.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 03:37:24 pm by TimG »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 02:51:01 pm »
Also, there has to be deterrence. I mean, of course the slimeball at the dinner-party was cheating on his taxes... he didn't think he'd get caught. I would think that "tough-on-crime" conservatives would applaud the idea of cracking down on white-collar criminals. I mean, conservatives are always in favor of putting more cops on the streets to patrol for street-level crime.  Why not an equal enthusiasm for getting tough on financial criminals?  Why not put more accounting "boots" on the "ground" to catch tax cheats and fraudsters?

To be clear here. This is not a matter of additional resources going to combat tax fraud. It is a matter of changing the existing tax code to outlaw completely legal practices which the government has hitherto encouraged, for no reason I can think of other than their continuing attempts at portraying themselves as the saviours of the middle class against the evil rich. Although, mind you, they never actually target the rich. They target those at the high end of the middle classes. The guys pulling in millions a year are not going to be impacted by this or anything else the Liberals have done so far. Which is not really surprising since Bill Morneau used to make a million dollars a year at daddy's firm and is estimated to be worth something over $30 million.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2017, 01:02:38 pm »
To be clear here. This is not a matter of additional resources going to combat tax fraud.

I understand that.  I was just thinking out loud about the disconnect between the typical conservative enthusiasm for "tough on crime, law and order, police on the streets" type law enforcement vs the general conservative disdain for the CRA employees who are supposed to be enforcing tax laws by detecting fraud?  There's always some rationalization. "bah, CRA is bloated, they have too many employees, cut the fat!" "bah, if the government collected more tax from tax cheats, they'd just waste it anyway." "bah! we should be thinking about ways to reduce government spending, not chasing tax evaders."  These are all just rationalizations for tax evasions, from people who don't like tax.

It is a matter of changing the existing tax code to outlaw completely legal practices which the government has hitherto encouraged,

There are lots of things that are completely legal but still undesirable. That's kind of the definition of "loophole". Does the fact that loopholes are legal mean we should never close them or stop people from taking advantage?

In regard to what "the government has hitherto encouraged", I gather that the government of Ontario promoted "income sprinkling" to Ontario doctors as an alternative to a rates increase.  "Instead of paying you more, we'll help you pay less taxes to the federal government. It's almost as good as a raise."   That's pretty ridiculous.  I think Bill Morneau was correct in pointing out that closing tax loopholes is not the venue to talk about compensation for physicians.

for no reason I can think of other than their continuing attempts at portraying themselves as the saviours of the middle class against the evil rich.

I read an article in the National Post last week from an economics professor who says that the number of "CCPC" tax entities in Canada has increased sharply since the Liberals announced a higher tax on top-income individuals.  That can't be a coincidence.  The author suggested that nobody hollered too much when the Liberals announced the higher rates because they knew they had avenues to avoid it anyway, and they're only mad now because the Liberals are moving to close those avenues.

Although, mind you, they never actually target the rich. They target those at the high end of the middle classes. The guys pulling in millions a year are not going to be impacted by this or anything else the Liberals have done so far. Which is not really surprising since Bill Morneau used to make a million dollars a year at daddy's firm and is estimated to be worth something over $30 million.

Well of course... this is the sort of thing that I find extremely frustrating. Conservative MP Dan Albas was on my radio last week and said that the proposed changes will affect about 1.1 million Canadians and result in revenue of $250 million. He suggested that targeting tax loopholes enjoyed by the richest 4000 Canadians could by contrast generate $850 million. I don't have a source for that interview or know what loopholes he was specifically talking about, but I think he mentioned Bombardier executives and their stock options by way of example.  Anyway, as I said earlier in the thread, I find it very frustrating that the government has no appetite to deal with that sort of thing.   Justin Trudeau spent the week promoting a talking point about having "two classes of taxpayers in this country."  And we do, and Morneau's new initiative won't change that.

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tax Loopholes Closing
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2017, 02:39:14 pm »
I understand that.  I was just thinking out loud about the disconnect between the typical conservative enthusiasm for "tough on crime, law and order, police on the streets" type law enforcement vs the general conservative disdain for the CRA employees who are supposed to be enforcing tax laws by detecting fraud?  There's always some rationalization. "bah, CRA is bloated, they have too many employees, cut the fat!" "bah, if the government collected more tax from tax cheats, they'd just waste it anyway." "bah! we should be thinking about ways to reduce government spending, not chasing tax evaders."  These are all just rationalizations for tax evasions, from people who don't like tax.

I don't like tax. I probably pay over 60% of my income to various levels of government. But I'm all for catching tax fraud. This is not tax fraud. And the administration costs are going to be very high. It will involve, for example, demanding everyone justify any family members they're paying income to, and in many cases actually visiting the sites to verify if it's a real job.

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There are lots of things that are completely legal but still undesirable. That's kind of the definition of "loophole". Does the fact that loopholes are legal mean we should never close them or stop people from taking advantage?

No, the definition of loophole is using a regulation for a purpose for which it was not intended, but which you can get away with because it is, if only technically, legal to do so. Doctors and dentists and farmers who operate a business and incorporated are using this correctly. There are others who simply incorporated to get lower taxes. I was advised to do it myself but never did. Morneau could have made tweaks to the system so that people using it for unintended purposes were booted out, but instead went after everyone using it.

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I read an article in the National Post last week from an economics professor who says that the number of "CCPC" tax entities in Canada has increased sharply since the Liberals announced a higher tax on top-income individuals.

Sure. Under the language of the current legislation I qualify as a business. CRA even insisted I get a business number and occasionally bug me to send in a HST return, even though I don't accept any money directly and the return always says "0". The language around what a 'business' is is pretty broad. So tighten it. As for the doctors, the reason they didn't holler before was that Morneau's and Wynne's tax increases on 'the wealthy' did not impact them since they are corporate entities.

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.nyway, as I said earlier in the thread, I find it very frustrating that the government has no appetite to deal with that sort of thing.   Justin Trudeau spent the week promoting a talking point about having "two classes of taxpayers in this country."  And we do, and Morneau's new initiative won't change that.

No, because that would mean pissing off a lot of powerful people, like Morneau's in-laws, for example, the McCain family (you may possibly have heard of them). Much easier to go after the upper middle class, call THEM the wealthy, and then stand up proudly with your cape blowing in the breeze as "Captain Middle Class" constantly attacking the evil "wealthy".

After all, it's a style over substance government.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:41:12 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum