Author Topic: Targetting Muslims  (Read 672 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2017, 06:28:59 pm »
The problem is not these people taking advantage of an incredibly slack system. They're only doing what is human nature to do, looking for a better life. The problem is the system which is so slack, so cumbersome and time-consuming that it encourages abuses.

Asylum was originally designed for political opponents of autocratic governments or those members of a group being persecuted by a government. It was not designed to apply wholesale to the entire population of countries which are at war, civil or otherwise, or to the entire populations of poor countries. The fact that half the Haitians who have applied thus far have been accepted shows just how absurdly broad Canada's definition has become. Virtually none of the Somalians ought to be accepted either, as they don't generally meet the UNHCR definition of refugees either. As for Syrians/Iraqis, the only ones who meet the definition would be Christians and Yazidis. Almost no one from North Africa would meet the definition either.

"A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it."
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2017, 06:44:10 pm »
So if I walk across a border and request asylum then I am not entering illegally ?  Doesn't that make borders pretty difficult to manage ?

Borders are difficult to manage.  That doesn't make it any less true.  You can look up the convention, if you'd like.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2017, 07:17:24 pm »
They're not illegals anyway - that's Conservative propaganda.  They're irregular border crossers, the legality of which is set out in the UN Refugee Convention of 1951, to which we are a signatory.

I disagree, they are illegally crossing the border.  The US is a safe country.  Refugees don't fear death in the US, they are safe there from war & human rights violations like the dangers true refugees face in their home countries.  Being afraid you may be deported from the US because your refugee/immigration claim is denied or you're going to be sent back to Haiti because the hurricanes have gone & your agreement with that country has expired is NOT a valid reason for a refugee claim.  Most of these migrants are economic migrants, which isn't grounds for refugee status.

UN definition of a refugee:

"A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it."

Nowhere does it say anything about economic status.  They're taking advantage of our kindness. Also, looking at the UN Refugee Convention in Article 31, we can turn away these illegal border crossers because the US isn't a territory where their life/freedom is threatened (again, US is a safe country, & not a place where refugees flee):

"The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their
illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory
where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1
, enter or
are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present
themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their
illegal entry or presence."

http://www.unhcr.org/protect/PROTECTION/3b66c2aa10.pdf

Also, a great article from a refugee lawyer: http://nationalpost.com/opinion/michael-barutciski-enough-with-this-silly-loophole-at-the-border-mr-trudeau-we-need-a-clear-policy-now
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Offline JMT

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2017, 07:31:30 pm »
Whether their life is in danger is actually up for debate in some of these cases.  If they are under threat of being returned to a country by the US that Canada would not return them to because said country is unsafe, then they are under direct threat. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2017, 09:13:12 pm »
Whether their life is in danger is actually up for debate in some of these cases.  If they are under threat of being returned to a country by the US that Canada would not return them to because said country is unsafe, then they are under direct threat.

But not from the U.S.

The whole point is to prevent claimants from hopping around to different countries making claims after they get rejected when they don't want to go back.  How are Haitians under threat when the US wants to send them back 5 years after a hurricane from which the US granted them temporary asylum?
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2017, 09:22:56 pm »
Whether their life is in danger is actually up for debate in some of these cases.  If they are under threat of being returned to a country by the US that Canada would not return them to because said country is unsafe, then they are under direct threat.

Read the convention. Explain how Haitians or Somalians qualify, or, for that matter, Iraqis or Syrians.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2017, 11:00:08 pm »
Read the convention. Explain how Haitians or Somalians qualify, or, for that matter, Iraqis or Syrians.

I didn't say that they all qualify.  Most Somalis facing deportation from the US would probably qualify though, as would many Syrians ad Iraqis at current.  When/if their status is rejected, their status returns to illegal, and we continue to deal with them on a case by case basis.  When someone inside Canada claims asylum, we must process that claim.  There's no way around that.

Offline JMT

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2017, 11:01:21 pm »
But not from the U.S.

That depends on their individual situation, which is why we can't do much other than process their claims.  Once they are in Canada due to their irregular crossing, where they came from no longer matters.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2017, 10:03:01 am »
I didn't say that they all qualify.  Most Somalis facing deportation from the US would probably qualify though, as would many Syrians ad Iraqis at current.  When/if their status is rejected, their status returns to illegal, and we continue to deal with them on a case by case basis.  When someone inside Canada claims asylum, we must process that claim.  There's no way around that.

In what way would they qualify? None of them likely face persecution because of their race, religion, nationality or membership in a particular group or political opinion. They come from a shitty country. I get that. So what? Find me the place in the UN convention that says "or comes from a shitty, violent, poverty stricken country'. There are over 14 million Somalis. Do they all qualify to come here? Do all 11 million Haitians qualify to come here? All 18 million Syrians? All 37 million Iraqis?

This happens to be the part of the world where our least economically successful immigrants come from. Most of these refugees will never do more than unskilled labour, if that. And we are facing an impending crisis in the coming decade or so as masses of unskilled jobs disappear due to automation. We do not need tens and hundreds of thousands more.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 10:05:28 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Peter F

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2017, 10:07:31 am »
Read the convention. Explain how Haitians or Somalians qualify, or, for that matter, Iraqis or Syrians.

 They qualify if they meet the requirements of Canadian laws (which I believe meet the UN convention requirements)  regarding refugee status.  Not the standard of Sir John which are, it seems, If you are Haitian, or Somalian you don't qualify.   As JMT rightly points out, claims are heard then ruled upon by actual refugee boards listening to actual claimants making claims. Thats how civilized countries operate as opposed to what you are advocating which is no need to listen to anyone about anything since it has already been decided without hearing anything the claimant says and to hell with the UN convention.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2017, 10:48:05 am »
They qualify if they meet the requirements of Canadian laws

Canadian law uses the same definition as the UNHCR. Tell me how they qualify under that definition.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2017, 11:46:39 am »
In what way would they qualify? None of them likely face persecution because of their race, religion, nationality or membership in a particular group or political opinion. They come from a shitty country. I get that. So what? Find me the place in the UN convention that says "or comes from a shitty, violent, poverty stricken country'. There are over 14 million Somalis. Do they all qualify to come here?

If a Somali comes here, they're pretty much guaranteed to stay, even if they're denied.  Their country is not safe, and so Canada will not deport to Somalia.  That's civilized society.

Offline JMT

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2017, 11:47:40 am »
Canadian law uses the same definition as the UNHCR. Tell me how they qualify under that definition.

Canadian law goes beyond that, actually.  We have to follow the Charter, which entitles everyone (even illegal aliens) to life, liberty, and security of the person.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2017, 02:30:35 pm »
If a Somali comes here, they're pretty much guaranteed to stay, even if they're denied.  Their country is not safe, and so Canada will not deport to Somalia.  That's civilized society.

So every Somali on earth qualifies to stay here and go on welfare? That's what you regard as civilized?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Targetting Muslims
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2017, 02:31:26 pm »
Canadian law goes beyond that, actually.  We have to follow the Charter, which entitles everyone (even illegal aliens) to life, liberty, and security of the person.

No it doesn't. The Charter means we have to give them a fair hearing to see if they meet the UN definition of refugees. There's nothing in there that says we are required to allow everybody on Earth who wants to live here to do so if their country is a shithole.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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