Author Topic: Talking Green (ie. the party)  (Read 408 times)

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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2020, 12:50:06 pm »
Pretty transparent yourself.

All you have is throw more money at the present system because it is perfect and anything else is a conservative plot to benefit the rich.

Stop embarrassing yourself and go ask your dad what the top tier gets and the bottom tier has to go without? Or take a day or two to think about it because you're done without it!

Offline wilber

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2020, 12:53:22 pm »
Stop embarrassing yourself and go ask your dad what the top tier gets and the bottom tier has to go without? Or take a day or two to think about it because you're done without it!

My dad died several years ago two weeks short of his 98'th birthday. You?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline MH

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2020, 07:11:48 pm »
Do you see the value in not allowing a loved one be excluded from the best treatements for Cancer because he/she doesn't have a couple of hundred thousand dollars to pay for it?

To point out: this is the way it is today.

But if people have an aversion to this idea - and of course they would - then you could exclude life saving treatment from the queue and still improve quality of care. 

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2020, 01:48:09 pm »
To point out: this is the way it is today.

But if people have an aversion to this idea - and of course they would - then you could exclude life saving treatment from the queue and still improve quality of care.

I don't agree that this is the way it is today and that's because our system is rated to be quite a few places higher than the US system. If we want to have the best in the world then we need to strive for a system as good as the world's leader. That is far from the US example.

And so we can return to the question: What does a two-tier system provide to the very wealthy that can't be provided to the rest of the people?

Offline MH

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2020, 01:57:40 pm »
And so we can return to the question: What does a two-tier system provide to the very wealthy that can't be provided to the rest of the people?

Queue jumping for convenience, for example, nice-to-haves.  I guess it's theoretical, from my POV and may not be a great idea.  But France does do this, and it's pretty socialist there (I lived there) so it makes me wonder.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2020, 02:36:34 pm »
Queue jumping for convenience, for example, nice-to-haves.  I guess it's theoretical, from my POV and may not be a great idea.  But France does do this, and it's pretty socialist there (I lived there) so it makes me wonder.

It could be that Canada has the best in the world?
 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/countries-with-the-most-well-developed-public-health-care-system

I wouldn't bet against it! As for a two-tier system? That would be a hugely destructive move against having one of the best. I think that to be the best in the world the country so named would be able to accept that it's perfectly good to allow it's very wealthy to jump the queue by travelling to some other country for quicker medical attention.

Somethinig worth mentioning is the fact that Americans per capita travel to some other country for healthcare nearly 2 1/2 times more than do Canadians!

France used to be #1 in the world but they may have slipped down the list on rankings?

Offline wilber

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2020, 03:25:27 pm »
Health care rankings are all over the map. You can find studies that rank Canada all the way from 1st to 30th.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2020, 01:17:57 am »
This assumes your public system is actually providing the best treatments for Cancer and your loved one will have speedy access to it. People shouldn't have to leave the country in order to access that level of care, particularly in a country as wealthy as Canada.

how many of these 'exceptions to the rule' are legitimate cases of the unavailability of 'best treatment'. Queue triage management should ensure acute needs patients are at the top end of the queue... or skip the queue all together. Are you able to provide stats as to how many Canadians seek life-saving treatments outside of Canada (cancer or otherwise)?

more pointedly, can you point to countries that have 2-tier systems where the 'bottom tier' hasn't been compromised by the development/expansion of the 'top tier'?

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2020, 12:12:29 pm »
how many of these 'exceptions to the rule' are legitimate cases of the unavailability of 'best treatment'. Queue triage management should ensure acute needs patients are at the top end of the queue... or skip the queue all together. Are you able to provide stats as to how many Canadians seek life-saving treatments outside of Canada (cancer or otherwise)?

more pointedly, can you point to countries that have 2-tier systems where the 'bottom tier' hasn't been compromised by the development/expansion of the 'top tier'?

There are numbers available on the web for both Canadians and Americans travelling out of country for health care. I based my '2 1/2 times' more for Americans on those figures. I believe it's something like 1.2 M Americans and the equal would be roughly .12 Canadians. The stats say something like 40,000 Canadians travel.

Wilbur can't say just what he would refuse to the bottom tier in healthcare and so can't be taken seriously until he does come up with some satisfactory explanations.

It's correct to say that the rankings for Canada's healthcare are all over the board but it's also correct to say that we're always rated better than the US system.

I have a suspicioin that the next Conservative government will have another run at introducing some sort of private 'for profit' system into our healthcare system. The profits to be had are just too big for the Cons to ignore.

Offline wilber

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2020, 01:49:06 pm »


more pointedly, can you point to countries that have 2-tier systems where the 'bottom tier' hasn't been compromised by the development/expansion of the 'top tier'?

You automatically assume there will be a top and bottom tier. Why?
Why is denying people care outside of a public system a bad thing?

I am completely in favour of a public system and universal coverage but it is simply ideology that prevents anything outside such a system. If governments aren't prepared to raise the revenues or make changes to improve a public system and in fact, ration healthcare, why shouldn't people be able to get treatment outside of it?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2020, 02:48:33 pm »
You automatically assume there will be a top and bottom tier. Why?
Why is denying people care outside of a public system a bad thing?

I am completely in favour of a public system and universal coverage but it is simply ideology that prevents anything outside such a system. If governments aren't prepared to raise the revenues or make changes to improve a public system and in fact, ration healthcare, why shouldn't people be able to get treatment outside of it?

You need to first stfu and then start to try to explain what you think you mean by your two-tier system in which there is no top and bottom. Or better still, stop wasting peoples' time with your silly nonsense.

Offline waldo

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2020, 04:30:32 pm »
how many of these 'exceptions to the rule' are legitimate cases of the unavailability of 'best treatment'. Queue triage management should ensure acute needs patients are at the top end of the queue... or skip the queue all together. Are you able to provide stats as to how many Canadians seek life-saving treatments outside of Canada (cancer or otherwise)?
There are numbers available on the web for both Canadians and Americans traveling out of country for health care. I based my '2 1/2 times' more for Americans on those figures. I believe it's something like 1.2 M Americans and the equal would be roughly .12 Canadians. The stats say something like 40,000 Canadians travel.

I should have been more precise - I wasn't speaking to so-called 'medical tourism'. Rather, I was referencing (suspect) concerns raised by 2-tier advocates who presume to suggest/imply that wait times are forcing "some number" of Canadians to seek life-saving medical care outside of Canada. Certainly there are a very limited number of specialized care/surgery options only available in other countries... but these have nothing to do with wait times in respective Canadian provinces. Of course the underlying premise has 2-tier advocates implying private health care options would preclude the need to seek these most rare specialized care/surgery needs outside of Canada. Hence my challenge to member wilber to put up some numbers/stats in that regard.

Offline waldo

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2020, 04:36:07 pm »
more pointedly, can you point to countries that have 2-tier systems where the 'bottom tier' hasn't been compromised by the development/expansion of the 'top tier'?
You automatically assume there will be a top and bottom tier. Why? Why is denying people care outside of a public system a bad thing?

clearly member Montgomery put your word-parsing nonsense in its place. But hey, I'll play; here's my do-over so you can't avoid the question intent:

can you point to countries that have 2-tier systems where the 'public tier' hasn't been compromised by the development/expansion of the 'private tier'?

Offline the_squid

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2020, 05:12:35 pm »

can you point to countries that have 2-tier systems where the 'public tier' hasn't been compromised by the development/expansion of the 'private tier'?

Sweden
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Offline wilber

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Re: Talking Green (ie. the party)
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2020, 05:30:18 pm »
You need to first stfu and then start to try to explain what you think you mean by your two-tier system in which there is no top and bottom. Or better still, stop wasting peoples' time with your silly nonsense.


This is the second thread where you have resorted to personal insults. Piss off yourself.
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