Author Topic: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?  (Read 1190 times)

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Offline JBG

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Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« on: September 06, 2017, 03:09:20 pm »
Recently in New York we "celebrated" the 40th anniversary of the arrest of David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" murderer (link). Mr. Berkowitz was arrested after a year plus long rampage where he shot people, usually in parked cars late at night, at random. Allegedly, he was commanded by a 1000 year old man talking through a Labrador Retriever owned by a neighbor whose first name was Sam.

He was caught when his vehicle received a parking ticket near the scene of a July 31, 1977 murder. He was arrested as he strolled towards the car which had the murder weapon, in plain view, in the back seat.

Similarly, Bernardo and Homulka caught virtually red-handed and arrested. Ditto Robert Picton.

In the U.S. Mr. Manson has now spent over 48 years as a government charge. Mr. Berkowitz has been in New York State prison for exactly 40 years. Neither Mr. Manson and his followers, or Mr. Berkowitz have any hope of release.   Bernardo and Homulka were arrested some 14 years ago if I recall correctly. Picton not long after. They will not contribute to society.

Unfortunately Homulka has been released. I fear Bernardo and Picton aren't far behind under the "faint hope" clause.

I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest. Failing that why aren't they mixed with the general prison population or die during an escape attempt? Think man-eater Jeffrey Dahlmer. I am not amused by the lengthy imprisonments or, in the case of Manson, the wild, theatrical trials that make a mockery of the court system.

The mental health of defendants such as James Holmes or Jarrod Lochner are of no concern to me. They need to die. Of what use are they?
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Offline JMT

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2017, 03:13:14 pm »
Is this a legitimate question, or is it simply designed to inflame?

No - I'm not in favour of that, at all.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2017, 03:15:37 pm »
The problem lies in the failure of the justice systems, both here and in the US, to convict people 'beyond any reasonable doubt' every single time. We know that innocent people get convicted. So what do we use as the standard to at least execute them out of hand? 'beyond any reasonable doubt but this time we're SURE'?

Given the appallingly bad judgement some cops have shown I'm certainly not willing to leave it up to them.

If we could improve the judicial systems I might reconsider, but I see no impetus towards doing so on the part of the legal community.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2017, 03:22:53 pm »
I fear Bernardo and Picton aren't far behind under the "faint hope" clause.

I can't tell you to not be afraid, but hopefully you have a rational part of your brain that calms such fears, as this is extremely unlikely.

Quote
I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest. Failing that why aren't they mixed with the general prison population or die during an escape attempt? Think man-eater Jeffrey Dahlmer. I am not amused by the lengthy imprisonments or, in the case of Manson, the wild, theatrical trials that make a mockery of the court system.

Well, we have a justice system.  Defenders would detect such breaches of justice and bring those who initiated them to trial.

Quote
The mental health of defendants such as James Holmes or Jarrod Lochner are of no concern to me. They need to die. Of what use are they?

Some objective facts/thoughts:

-There have been major problems with capital punishment in the US since some states brought it back.   Subsequently, some of those same states have stayed capital punishment again.

-Support for capital punishment, and belief in its fairness are [ur=http://www.gallup.com/poll/196676/death-penalty-support.aspxl]dropping[/url]

-The costs of process for capital punishment has ben quoted in the past as challenging the costs of incarceration, however this assertion is disputed also

-Mistakes still happen, and a populace that doesn't trust the government to deliver healthcare might be expected to distrust the government to kill people

-Homocide rates are declining in the long term

some thoughts...
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2017, 03:27:27 pm »
Pickton is going to get out soon?   This view is really ignorant....   You sound like another American poster on a different forum who simply beaks off about Canada.   Are you taking up that mantle on this forum?
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Offline Omni

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2017, 03:28:03 pm »
Recently in New York we "celebrated" the 40th anniversary of the arrest of David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" murderer (link). Mr. Berkowitz was arrested after a year plus long rampage where he shot people, usually in parked cars late at night, at random. Allegedly, he was commanded by a 1000 year old man talking through a Labrador Retriever owned by a neighbor whose first name was Sam.

He was caught when his vehicle received a parking ticket near the scene of a July 31, 1977 murder. He was arrested as he strolled towards the car which had the murder weapon, in plain view, in the back seat.

Similarly, Bernardo and Homulka caught virtually red-handed and arrested. Ditto Robert Picton.

In the U.S. Mr. Manson has now spent over 48 years as a government charge. Mr. Berkowitz has been in New York State prison for exactly 40 years. Neither Mr. Manson and his followers, or Mr. Berkowitz have any hope of release.   Bernardo and Homulka were arrested some 14 years ago if I recall correctly. Picton not long after. They will not contribute to society.

Unfortunately Homulka has been released. I fear Bernardo and Picton aren't far behind under the "faint hope" clause.

I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest. Failing that why aren't they mixed with the general prison population or die during an escape attempt? Think man-eater Jeffrey Dahlmer. I am not amused by the lengthy imprisonments or, in the case of Manson, the wild, theatrical trials that make a mockery of the court system.

The mental health of defendants such as James Holmes or Jarrod Lochner are of no concern to me. They need to die. Of what use are they?

Maybe you'd be happier in the US where, at least in certain states, they don't mind state sanctioned murder, even if they do kill a few innocent people every now and again.

Offline Omni

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2017, 03:31:26 pm »
Pickton is going to get out soon?   This view is really ignorant....   You sound like another American poster on a different forum who simply beaks off about Canada.   Are you taking up that mantle on this forum?

I guess we know what we'll B_C'ing soon.

Offline JMT

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2017, 03:41:11 pm »
Maybe you'd be happier in the US where, at least in certain states, they don't mind state sanctioned murder, even if they do kill a few innocent people every now and again.

Just FYI, he's already in the US.

Offline Omni

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2017, 03:52:44 pm »
Just FYI, he's already in the US.

Actually that thought donned on me just after I hit "post".
Thanks for the confirmation.
Now lets sweep the dust off that electric chair shall we.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2017, 04:00:34 pm »

I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest.

I think your first sentence is the answer to your question.



Offline Omni

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2017, 04:26:25 pm »
I think your first sentence is the answer to your question.

Sounds like a complete and utter contradiction to me. No real lawyer would ever do that, at least intentionally. And we have certainly seen more than enough examples of how often cops, especially in the US, have put themselves in the position of executioner, and they even get away with it.   

Offline JBG

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2017, 05:24:28 pm »
Sounds like a complete and utter contradiction to me. No real lawyer would ever do that, at least intentionally. And we have certainly seen more than enough examples of how often cops, especially in the US, have put themselves in the position of executioner, and they even get away with it.
Seriously, of what possible use is Robert Pickton or Bernardo/Homulka?
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2017, 05:35:44 pm »
Seriously, of what possible use is Robert Pickton or Bernardo/Homulka?

Probably none.  You have to design a system, though, to deal with it which means the system needs to be fail safe ie. err on the side of caution towards suspects.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2017, 05:41:20 pm »
They should live so they can be forced to do hard labour in order to pay back their debt to society.  12 hour days of back-breaking labour sounds better than just killing them.

I don't want the state to have the power to kill its own citizens as punishment.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2017, 07:26:38 pm »
Seriously, of what possible use is Robert Pickton or Bernardo/Homulka?

They well be of no use, but you, nor I, should have the authority to kill them. That's murder and I want nothing to do with it. Lock 'em up and throw away the key if need be.