Author Topic: Returning ISIS Fighters  (Read 1293 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2018, 12:15:29 pm »
Charged with what?  And with what evidence can we convict him?  It's not like we can comb crime scene for forensic evidence or interview witnesses.

Gee. Too bad we couldn't remove his citizenship...
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Offline Rue

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2018, 04:41:40 pm »
Ok here is the problem. Under our existing laws in Canada, if you are a Canadian citizen, your right to return to Canada is not prohibited by engaging in crimes or terrorism in other countries. The only thing that delays it is if your passport is lost or expired believe it or not  because then there is a delay while you have to obtain outside Canada your passport before you return. Most airlines won't let you on an international  flight now without a passport. If you use a fake one and make it to Canada and are caught, you are arrested at the port of entry and held in detention until you prove your Canadian citizenship.

If you are a Canadian cittizen criminal fugitive from having been charged with or convicted of a crime in another country with an extradition treaty with Canada we will with the proper extradition documents provided, send you back to the country you engaged in the crime with.

If you engaged in a crime in a foreign country that is not a crime in Canada or leads to a longer term in jail or execution, we won't send you back even where an extradition treaty exists.

By the way and off topic,  any non Canadian citizen who engages in a crime in another country and flees to Canada can apply for refugee status if they can show their crime in that country is not a crime in Canada or gets them a longer jail sentence than in Canada or capital punish- ment.

Now this particular individual is a Canadian citizen. We have no domestic law that says we strip citizenship based on the grounds of engaging in a crime or terrorism outside our country.

As well the fool Justin Trudeau has created a legal precedent that if we do not take back terrorists who are Canadian citizens they can sue us and get millions.

Further in the absence of an international agreement nations would draft and volunteer to incorporate in their domestic laws, there is no protocol for excluding terrorists from returning.

Unless that individual is convicted of a crime in a country with no extradition treaty with Canada  and they jail him they can deport him back to us where unless we can show he committed a crime in the Criminal Code of Canada, he walks free which he will if he returns.

Even when a Canadian citizen serve their criminal conviction time overseas in a country with no agreement with Canada to send them back to Canada to serve their time which some countries have with us, Trudeau set a legal precedent we must still try get them out or our country gets sued once they do get out and return to Canada.

You ask me, we need an international treaty  that places terrorists of all ages in an international prison in a neutral country once tried by an international tribunal regardless of their age, sex, etc., and convicted of terrorism.

We have a problem. This terrorist is going to use the Kadr precedent to demand bei g sent back to us or he will sue when he eventually gets back. I believe he is in Turkey. Turkey created and funds Isis and openly finances Isis.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 06:59:45 pm by Rue »
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Offline Rue

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2018, 04:42:34 pm »
I think he should come back and be charged and go to jail.  Just as we reserve the right to send foreign nationals who break our laws back to their own country, we should have to accept back Canadians who engage in criminal behavior abroad.

What about his wife and kids?  I don't think she should get a pass either, but if they are having trouble finding charges for him, how mich harder for her?

No current law allows that.
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Offline Rue

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2018, 04:49:01 pm »
Gee. Too bad we couldn't remove his citizenship...

No law allows that right now. As well even if we passed one, if the person is born in Canada and they are as a result from Canada originally, the host country may demand deportation back to us because they don't want to deal with them. If they came to Canada as a second d country to get citizenship, yah we should remove it and tell them bye bye after they serve time. No such laws exist and I guarantee a Charter challenge if you tried which is why I say to Godess yes we should have an international tribunal to charge, convict and incarcerate terrorists. I would like to add to that international people smugglers and money launderers.
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Offline Goddess

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2018, 05:23:00 pm »
which is why I say to Godess yes we should have an international tribunal to charge, convict and incarcerate terrorists. I would like to add to that international people smugglers and money launderers.

I was thinking this afternoon that something done internationally may work.....

Of course, by the time that gets set up, all the ISIS fighters will already be walking our streets.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 06:00:55 pm »
As well the fool Justin Trudeau has created a legal precedent that if we do not take back terrorists who are Canadian citizens they can sue us and get millions.

I didn't know the fool Justin Trudeau was a judge, as only judges/courts create legal precedents. I guess I learn something new every day.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 06:19:17 pm »
I didn't know the fool Justin Trudeau was a judge, as only judges/courts create legal precedents. I guess I learn something new every day.
Trudeau settled out of court which creates a precedent that makes it hard for governments to argue in court that a similar award should not be given to every terrorist/killer/rapist who argues that the government was tardy in bringing him home while he sits in a foreign jail cell.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 06:26:07 pm »
Trudeau settled out of court which creates a precedent

Out of court settlements are made all the time for the specific reason of not making a legal precedent. Trudeau is following in a long line of government, corporations, and individuals that do that.

Offline TimG

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2018, 06:31:39 pm »
Out of court settlements are made all the time for the specific reason of not making a legal precedent. Trudeau is following in a long line of government, corporations, and individuals that do that.
Do you seriously believe that a judge is not going to take into account out of court settlements when deciding on an award for someone in similar circumstances? If so I have a bridge to sell you. The financial terms of most out of court settlements are kept secret to avoid this problem but when the government is involved it does not really have the option of keeping the financial terms secret. The bottom line is the second this guy gets home he will be suing the government for his 10 million and will likely win in court because of Khadr.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 06:38:42 pm by TimG »

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2018, 06:49:47 pm »
The bottom line is the second this guy gets home he will be suing the government for his 10 million and will likely win in court because of Khadr.

The cases are nothing like each other, even in slightest.

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2018, 07:10:11 pm »

As well the fool Justin Trudeau has created a legal precedent that if we do not take back terrorists who are Canadian citizens they can sue us and get millions.
As I understand the situation, Harper's Gov had spent millions and looked to be on the hook for $20 million because the gov violated his rights according to our own laws.  If JT's Gov had continued the fight and lost costing the taxpayer closer to $20 Million, would that have been a better outcome and precedent to set?

I appreciate the info you provided, as its probably reasonably accurate as far as the limits of our response to returning terrorists. 

But consider that if the previous government had honored our laws, there would have been no basis for Khadr's lawsuit and no precedent set, whether ten or thirty million.  Folks want to blame Trudeau and forget that it was Harper who put him in the position of having to decide whether to cut our losses or keep going and hope to win what appeared to be a losing hand.

Here's what three legal experts said about the decision to settle rather than continue to argue in court.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/omar-khadr-legal-analysis-aaron-wherry-1.4199409
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Offline TimG

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2018, 07:22:12 pm »
We have a law on the books that allow Canadians to be charged with sex abuse even if committed in a foreign country.
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/publications/child-crime

Trudeau should pass a similar law for Canadians who engage in terrorism in other countries.
That would end all of the debates.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2018, 07:23:01 pm »
Charged with what?  And with what evidence can we convict him?  It's not like we can comb crime scene for forensic evidence or interview witnesses.

Unless the act of traveling abroad to join a group like ISIS (or "extreme tourism", as the Liberals like to call it) is in itself a crime, I think we're kind of SOL.  Last time we had a tread about "extreme tourists", I think we learned that there's very little the government can do beyond give them the "we're watching you" scowl and ask them to attend the deradicalization day-care program Ralph has been working on.

 -k

The Conservatives had a decade to create legislation.   The Liberals should get on it immediately.

Offline TimG

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2018, 07:25:31 pm »
The cases are nothing like each other, even in slightest.
So you claim. But you can bet there are plenty of lawyers who will argue otherwise and once it goes to a judge no one can predict the eventual outcome. I frankly don't care if the chance of him winning is 90%, 50% or even 10%. The possibility of him winning is enough to say that we don't want him back and let him rot. Trudeau could fix this problem with a new law but the chances of that happening are slim.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Returning ISIS Fighters
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2018, 07:31:03 pm »
We have a law on the books that allow Canadians to be charged with sex abuse even if committed in a foreign country.

Trudeau should pass a similar law for Canadians who engage in terrorism in other countries.
That would end all of the debates.

Agreed. The challenge of course will be defining terrorism. Would the former Canadian soldier that returned to Afghanistan to fight against the Taliban be considered terrorism?